Great Comment on the Tea Party

[CyberDruid]

This guy posted the following in Yahoo comments and really summed it up for me.

What an historical oddity. The Tea Partiers insist that only the most extreme form of conservatism qualifies as the heritage of the Revolutionary War patriots. What nonsense. We must have stopped teaching history before they got to school. The conservatives during the Revolution were the Tories--the patriots were liberals or progressives by any definition. The conservatives during the run-up to the Civil War fought against the expansion of the nation to the West, and opposed public highways and canals, and spun lies to spread paranoia about new immigrants. The progressives led the nation to become a mighty land spreading from the Atlantic to the Pacific. In the 1850's the conservatives fought to expand slavery into the Territories and even to outlaw Northern laws forbidding slavery in the Northern states--eg: the Dred Scott decision. During the Civil War the conservatives were the Southern slaveholders and the major conservative Christian denomination today was born to defend the slave society--the Southern Baptist Church. The progressives were the Unionists and the abolitionists who assured the United States would survive and become the mighty nation we are.

The conservatives opposed the vote for women and defeated the Equal Rights Amendment. Ohio Senator Robert Taft, "Mr. Conservative", opposed Lend-lease and the institution of the draft before World War II, the same position taken by the German-American Bundt that so admired Adolph Hitler. A hundred years after the Civil War the conservatives were still opposing the Civil Rights laws that, once adopted, have made the United States a far better place for all people. Conservatives have been wrong on every crucial issue that has faced the United States in the last 236 years.

The United States became a great nation because it overcame conservative impulses, not because it succumbed to them. If we now become the conservative nation that the Tories wanted or the slaveholders wanted or or the Jim Crow legislators wanted or the isolationists wanted, we will become a withering nation filled with bigotry and fear instead of a beacon of liberty and prosperity to inspire the world.

Quit telling the lie that the United States has always been a conservative nation. The United States soared to the leadership role in the free world because we were a nation of progressive impulse and liberal philosophy. The conservative claim is a lie.(toast)

[entropy13]

Link to where in Yahoo! exactly? :p

Well if the conservatives had their way then the Louisiana Purchase would have never happened and Ford, Don, mlee would be French, or be living in a country with French roots similar to Cote D'Ivoire, Canada (especially Quebec), Haiti...

[CyberDruid]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100912/ap_on_el_se/us_delaware_senate

Comments get buried fast on hot topics.

[FordGT90Concept]

I have to disagree on most of that. To be a conservative is to simply mean opposed to government expansion. To be a progressive simply means to be in support of government expansion. Most of the topics raised (slavery, women's sufferage, and other civil issues), progressivism and conservativism labels carry no weight. He was correct on expanding the size of America, for example (a blatant expansion of government).

The guy is clearly a liberal and he doesn't recognize that progressive ideals get us in the mess we are in right now (way overspent our means). Progressives introduce chaos and conservatives fight for stability. An instable nation is a weak one. You need a mix of both and, as demonstrated by recent history, America is pretty moderate. If the progressives get out of hand (e.g. Obama) there's a HUGE conservative backlash.

Basically, there's a time for expansion and there is a time for battening down the hatches. Currently, we are in the batten phase.

[jmcslob]

Not no more
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100913/ap_on_bi_st_ma_re/us_wall_street
China's expanding again Financial Reform is working better than expected but we're still screwed

[yogurt_21]

agree that tea partiers have lost their sense of reality in linking themselves with revolutionaries.

disagree that liberal is the way to go. I like the word progressive more than liberal as progressive is less political and more societal (yes they are different)
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/progressive

I like this definition the best making use of or interested in new ideas, findings, or opportunities

as opposed to liberal where half the defintions are pretty damned bad

given or provided in a generous and openhanded way <a liberal meal>
handouts

obsolete : lacking moral restraint : licentious
immoral

b archaic : of or befitting a man of free birth

ok sure they're referencing birth but archaic being in there is interesting, alot of people would use the term for conservatives, yet when i look back at history the greeks have liberal written all over them.

this is perhaps why I like libertarians more than democrats.

the man who posted that is an obvious democrat and his entire argument is based on that narrow world view, as an independant or rather non-party member I think that those who narrow their worldview so much that they cannot break themselves from the views of their party are worse than cavemen and are holding this country back more than they realize. They exist in both major parties.

[Deusxmachina]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100912/ap_on_el_se/us_delaware_senate

Comments get buried fast on hot topics.

So the claptrap the Yahoo commenter made about the Tea Party and conservatives and Republicans is a comment in a news story titled "GOP tries to take out tea party-backed candidate." What?

Everyone go look up the Tea Party's "Contract from America." Go ahead; I'll wait. Nearly every bit of it is, in one form or other, about taxes. But that Yahoo wants to link the Tea Party to slave owners and whatever else? :rolleyes:

[jmcslob]

The Tea Party is retarded

No Offense

Senseless Tax cuts will only make things worse..

Targeted Tax cuts and Tax increases is the best solution..

I don't think taxes should be increased for those making $250k or more I think it would be better for those making $400k or more

And we need to end the Bullshit earned Income Credit for people that make less than 10k a year...

I actually know people who refuse to work because they will get the same for the earned income credit as they would if they actually earned it..

Sorry but $6000 Tax overpayment refund for someone that made $2500 is Bullshit ~ and those are the same people living in Govt housing and eating VIA Food Stamps

Back on taxes..
All offshore investments need triple Taxed unless it cannot be produced in the US.

The Tea Party acts as if Taxes can simply be slashed without regard of their purpose and That's just plain Retarded.

It may sound good to people that follow Sarah Palin but as for the rest of us it just sounds retarded.

[SK-1]

Targeted Tax cuts and Tax increases is the best solution..


Tax the rich even more?
Keep taxing the wealth makers and they will move...period. Then no more tax base. Its happening everywhere right now.

Why are the dems so afraid?
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100913/ap_on_bi_ge/us_gulf_oil_spill_contracts_3

[DaMulta]

Move where? The Eu to really get taxed? I think not.

They stayed here when the tax rate was 90%.....and they still made a killing. Only thing is everyone at the bottom got more of the pie in the end of the day.

Why do they need a bigger peice of the pie than they are already getting? If they are making record profits, and still not hiring then I don't think giving them anymore money is going to work.

MAYBE just MAYBE like it did WAY back in the day when TAXES were HIGH. It forced upper class to invest MORE into their company. When companies didn't just fire works for make another dollar. Instead they would take those people, and invest in the company even more. Which equaled more profit, and better benefits for employees with better pay for them to stay aboard.

[SK-1]

Seriously? Really? Dude, lots of places treat business better than this current regime. This is really commonplace. I'm very surprised you didn't know this fundamental policy.

For instance...

Ireland Subsidiary

Typically, he said, a company like Microsoft develops a product like Windows in the United States and deducts those costs against U.S. income. It then transfers the technology to a subsidiary in Ireland, where corporate tax rates are lower, without charging licensing fees. The company then assigns its foreign sales to the Irish subsidiary so it doesn’t have to claim the income in the United States.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=aAKluP7yIwJY

[DaMulta]

Ireland great place to move a business, where workers are leaving the country for work. Due to them raising taxes on the middle class, and cutting their pay by around 20%.

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2010/06/29/business/29austerity-gfx/29austerity-gfx-popup.jpg

I'm sure they will love all the other things about doing business over there. With all the Union rules to go along with it.

Ireland

Ireland owes much of its legal system to being formerly part of the United Kingdom. The Irish government generally adheres to EU social directives and was one of the first to introduce an integrated non-discrimination law giving protection to a wide range of social groups. Ongoing tripartite agreements exist to sustain growth and control price inflation. The National Labour Court may issue binding recommendations on pay and conditions in companies where trade union recognition does not exist.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/29/business/global/29austerity.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1

[Deusxmachina]

Move where? The Eu to really get taxed? I think not.


Good timing for these "moving" comments. Just today I was talking to a stock trader who employs, hmm, I think about 10 people as "sub-traders" under him. He made 100k today, and his wife is super-cheap and drives a 1990 Toyota Corolla. That's awesome.

Anywho, he lives in California, and this subject came up. After he got done saying how it sucks there, and how much in taxes he paid last year, etc, he said he is seriously thinking of moving to China to get away from the U.S.' crazy taxes. I haven't looked into it, but supposedly, according to him, it's not overly hard to become a Chinese citizen.

[DaMulta]

And that is what you call pure greed today. My guess is maybe a few will leave, but not that many will really do it. It will mostly be just talking about doing it.

Everyone in the world wants to do business here in the US, and no matter what it will be that way for a time to come.

[jmcslob]

Tax the rich even more?
Keep taxing the wealth makers and they will move...period. Then no more tax base. Its happening everywhere right now.

Why are the dems so afraid?
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100913/ap_on_bi_ge/us_gulf_oil_spill_contracts_3

You do realize they are talking personal income....
If these people were reinvesting that money into stocks or their companies they wouldn't owe that tax...

Sorry but under current taxes someone making 400k a year ends with 250k after taxes and I think that should remain..

But someone who's making 1 million $ is walking away with $750k and I think they would be ok walking away with $675k....again that's not investments that's spending money

[Deusxmachina]

But someone who's making 1 million $ is walking away with $750k and I think they would be ok walking away with $675k....again that's not investments that's spending money

I'm sure a lot of people would be ok with someone else walking away with $75k less from what they earned, because it's not their money being taken away.

"Pure greed" isn't wanting to keep more of what you've earned. ESPECIALLY when the government shows time after time all it does is waste it.

[CyberDruid]

The taxes are most definitely wasted.

[DaMulta]

A ton of people would not be happy with the taxes even if they were at 5%. People just don't want to pay for a system. That keeps us safe while we see, teach our kids, roads we all drive on. We countless other systems that help everyone on the table.

Yet a few bad apples is the only thing people see even if they are in a basket full of good ones.


It's not like I've never been around money either(just saying). I have my view point mostly I think from it being highly debated around me. Honestly most of my family are in the top bracket(I'm one of the only ones not), and I have always really been taught that paying taxes is a good thing. Cause it helps the whole group in the end, and if you can get thew life more than ok. Then your golden, because a ton of people will struggle there entire lives even with government help. It's just not right to throw people under the bus so to say.

[Papahyooie]

The guy who wrote this obviously missed the point. Ford's the only one so far who's made the connection. The revolutionaries were, for all purposes, libertarians, and therefore very close in doctrine to the Tea Party. Whether you or I like the tea party's doctrine or not is irrelevant. What the Tea Party means when they say they are the decendants of Revolutionaries, is that they are against large, overbearing, and oppressive government. Notice that the bill of rights is all about "government shall NOT." It's a document telling the government its boundaries. If that's not the opposite of progressivism, I'm not sure what is.

[DaMulta]

I love when Tea Partiers are asked what insurance they have, and it's government HC for say their kids. Other ones are great when they admit they are on SS, and yet they are screaming about it at the same time. It's almost they are only against other people getting befits, and not themselves lol

Remember our FIRST Government didn't work, and we had to redo it. The Tea Party wants to revive the Articles of Confederation from what I can tell

[CyberDruid]

If there were an option to pay taxes for social services but NOT war I'd be alot happier giving my hard won bread to the Republic for which it stands.

I have never supported war in any shape or form. War is a pork belly, a boondoggle, a way of Old Boys taking care of each other and fattening their coffers.

We need to update our basic infrastructure. We are so busy spending money shoring up Wall Street and Fighting yet another "Vietnam" we'll be hard pressed to keep our basic services intact. Maybe the Chinese can lend us even more moey so we can have schools and roads and gas lines and all those boring things. lol

[Papahyooie]

Remember our FIRST Government didn't work, and we had to redo it. The Tea Party wants to revive the Articles of Confederation from what I can tell

Indeed there are hypocrites everywhere.

It wasn't that our first government didnt work. It worked just fine, until those who wanted the federal government to take over powers it wasn't given just happened to be the ones who took the moral high ground on slavery.
Keep in mind I am obviously not condoning slavery... don't be that guy. But the civil war started over not slavery, but over the states rights to secede. Slavery just gave progressives the excuse to "take over." No document ever gave them the right to keep a state from seceding, but a war sure did.

[SK-1]

http://img.techpowerup.org/100913/Capture760.jpg

BOO! Shes coming to get you ALL!!!!!

[CyberDruid]

She's a MGILTF...in the eye socket :p

[MT Alex]

Federal taxes do not pay for local roads, schools, or infrastructure.

The only roads the feds directly pay for are intersate highways.
Local roads that receive any funds at all need to apply for federal matching funds. In the case of large states like Montana with low populations, the matching funds are used as a way to strong arm state issues with the threat of no matching funds. Most road upkeep is paid through gas taxes and vehicle registration.

For those of you who are thrilled with the Bush/Kennedy No Child Left Behind, then you'll be glad to know matching funds are used the same way with schools. Most local school buildings, textbooks, lunches, extraciricular are paid for by local mill levies, per school district, in '04 - '05 .83 of every dollar spent was from local means. This essentially means the school district actually puts another note on your property. There wasn't a Department of Education until 1979, and most would agree that the schools have taken a dump since then.

Basic services are, by in large, funded at a State level. Period. More fed dollars equals more fed restrictions. Do what you want in your area, but don't expect everyones neck of the woods to conform to yours. It's bad enough that no matter what big city you go to, there is at least one square mile that looks the same. Wal-Mart is next to Home Depot, Lowes, Best Buy, Famous Daves, Costco, ect.

[Wile E]

The Tea Party is retarded

No Offense

Senseless Tax cuts will only make things worse..

Targeted Tax cuts and Tax increases is the best solution..

I don't think taxes should be increased for those making $250k or more I think it would be better for those making $400k or more

And we need to end the Bullshit earned Income Credit for people that make less than 10k a year...

I actually know people who refuse to work because they will get the same for the earned income credit as they would if they actually earned it..

Sorry but $6000 Tax overpayment refund for someone that made $2500 is Bullshit ~ and those are the same people living in Govt housing and eating VIA Food Stamps

Back on taxes..
All offshore investments need triple Taxed unless it cannot be produced in the US.

The Tea Party acts as if Taxes can simply be slashed without regard of their purpose and That's just plain Retarded.

It may sound good to people that follow Sarah Palin but as for the rest of us it just sounds retarded.
You don't get EIC for $2500 of taxable income. You have to earn more than $9k, iirc.

I earn a lot more than that, and still get EIC at tax time. I don't get welfare or govt housing.

[jmcslob]

You don't get EIC for $2500 of taxable income. You have to earn more than $9k, iirc.

I earn a lot more than that, and still get EIC at tax time. I don't get welfare or govt housing.

Actually your right it is $9000 I was being somewhat sarcastic...

But the point stands....

I'm sorry I still believe EIC needs to go away...Makes me wonder how much our deficit would be minus the EIC..

As I see it the only earned income you should get credit for is the income you earned by working...

[Wile E]

The last thing you should be worried about is the deficit caused by EIC. What you need to worry about is the deficit caused by govt overspending. Fix the overspending, and the less fortunate still get their EIC with room to spare.

[jmcslob]

The last thing you should be worried about is the deficit caused by EIC. What you need to worry about is the deficit caused by govt overspending. Fix the overspending, and the less fortunate still get their EIC with room to spare.

EIC is overspending
It's giving money back as if it was earned....

I know people rely on it... I do understand but how can we continue to give money towards something that'll never be paid back

[Wile E]

I just think you are focusing your energies in the wrong area. You are suddenly targeting people below the poverty line, when you should be going after the govt.

After the govt cuts unneeded spending that doesn't benefit anyone at all, and the economy recovers, then go after EIC, that at least benefits someone, and can stimulate teh economy. I spent my EIC of teh past 2 year at smaller businesses (and bills). I bought a car from a local lot, and bought my cpu from a smaller IT store.

I think your heart is in the right place, but your priorities are mixed up.

[jmcslob]

I don't believe EIC should be first to go but it needs a deadline..or it's cut back at least 50%

I do think people over 400k should go up in taxes by 2-3% first and of course Govt needs to cut back on spending/ redirect spending.

Foreign aid needs cut 100% until our budget is balanced
Govt needs to cut spending on Pharm companies
Military spending needs cut.

And I'm against infrastructure spending except roads sewers etc..
Gas, Electric etc.. needs paid for by the companies that profit from it...ALL federal money needs cut to those areas

[Deusxmachina]

Foreign aid needs cut 100% until our budget is balanced
Govt needs to cut spending on Pharm companies
Military spending needs cut.


Hell, forget the cuts, I'd be happy if they simply start with freezing spending and not auto-increasing it every year.

Government. The only place where increasing spending by a smaller % than originally intended = a cut.