Abortion and the murder of a pregnant woman?

[hat]

Note: this is not intended to be an argument for or against abortion, it is only to show the power of society's lust.

I'm sure we've all seen abortion arguments before, and we all know how they end up: usually in a e-flame that gets locked up. There are those that support abortion, those that condemn it and those that just don't care. I myself condemn it but I will not get into reasons why as that will only start another e-war. I only wish to show this one quick point:

How is it that society, in general, allows abortion through whoopies made through the prowess of lust, however, if someone kills a pregnant woman (such as was the case when the 11 year old boy shot his father's pregnant girlfriend), they can be charged with multiple counts of murder for the same person, depending on the amount of growing unborns. One count for the pregnant woman and one count for every unborn child. However, it isn't murder to have an abortion, which, for the unborn, results in the same end as killing the pregnant mother: death. How is it that abortion is not considered murder yet killing an unborn child by killing the mother is?

[LittleLizard]

those that just don't care.

Im with those. I have no feelings so i cant say my opinions about that case.

[hat]

It's not about that specific case. It's simply illustrating the fact that it is murder when the mother is killed, but it isn't thought of twice when there is an abortion.

[LittleLizard]

It's not about that specific case. It's simply illustrating the fact that it is murder when the mother is killed, but it isn't thought of twice when there is an abortion.

depend of your chategorization of human. the yet to be born is a human or not?

[hat]

It certianly is. I feel that once the egg is fertalized, it becomes human.

[Triprift]

Ive always looked at abortion as a basic human right.

[FordGT90Concept]

Note: this is not intended to be an argument for or against abortion, it is only to show the power of society's lust.

I'm sure we've all seen abortion arguments before, and we all know how they end up: usually in a e-flame that gets locked up. There are those that support abortion, those that condemn it and those that just don't care. I myself condemn it but I will not get into reasons why as that will only start another e-war. I only wish to show this one quick point:

How is it that society, in general, allows abortion through whoopies made through the prowess of lust, however, if someone kills a pregnant woman (such as was the case when the 11 year old boy shot his father's pregnant girlfriend), they can be charged with multiple counts of murder for the same person, depending on the amount of growing unborns. One count for the pregnant woman and one count for every unborn child. However, it isn't murder to have an abortion, which, for the unborn, results in the same end as killing the pregnant mother: death. How is it that abortion is not considered murder yet killing an unborn child by killing the mother is?
Firstly, Roe v. Wade broke the legalities of abortion down in to trimesters: 1st term = abortion is fine, 2nd term = abortion is tolerated but not recommended, 3rd term = DA could prosecute mother/doctor/etc. for murder. This applies to murder cases as well. Anything in the 1st term isn't considered a life--just a bunch of cells (could be cancer? :x). 2nd and 3rd term, the DA could prosecute for multiple murders (mother plus children)--most likely to prosecute for multiple in the 3rd term. Some may press charges in the second term too especially if the way in which the murder was carried out in an inhumane way (torture and the like). DAs are more inclined to pursue the highest punishment possible in those cases.

It's really quite simple: the whole abortion discussion breaks down into when a growing fetus is considered a life. Roe v. Wade declared that in terms of trimesters (most notably, the heart rate stabilizes around 30 days which means the brain has established control). The mistake is that, in this current political environment, politicians feel they have to turn the abortion subject into law that mandates one way or another; yet, the subject is social/criminal which is the judicial branches job. The judicial branch has already spoken on the subject. I believe, beyond what the judicial branch did and continues to do (update the definition of murder as new information becomes available and prosecute those that commit the crime) the legislative and especially executive branch needs to stay out of it. It is none of their business.


I guess you could say I'm pro-judicial branch, and as always, the judicial branch rules on shades of gray. XD

[Shadowfold]

Ive always looked at abortion as a basic human right.

That's what it is. If you think it's "not right", then what else do you think is not right? Gay marriage?

[FordGT90Concept]

State judicial systems have ruled on that one too. The government doesn't have the right to say two of the same sex can't marry.

[yogurt_21]

That's what it is. If you think it's "not right", then what else do you think is not right? Gay marriage?

one could say the same about child porn, rape, murder, sex with minors, theft, extortion.

I mean seriously wtf kind of argument is that? anyone can say anything is a basic human right. when in reality "rights" are a creation of government. whereas the difference between right and wrong or a moral compass should be something innate in humans. I've been questioning that of late.

should a woman be allowed the morning after pill? yes.

but truly there is a line of when it becomes murder and in the U.S. I think we're crossing it simply because politiciants want to advance and see that and gay marriage as a way to do it. Not because we're concerned about so called "rights".

if we really cared about "rights" then we wouldn't be stripped searched at the airport or be forced to give up our water only to be charged for a beverage on a plane, or restricted from travel because the govt is having a tiffy with the country you're wishing to travel to. Or not allowed to take photos of certian areas or events, or being arrested for forming a protest. (40 at Obama's speech at Notre Dame)

no the govt is not concerned with our "rights," only their own gain.

Do it hink a raped woman should have to bear that child? no of course not but things like the morning after pill or early chemical abortions (less than 6 weeks) are available.

but really? she waits until she's into her second trimester and decides no adoption wont work, no dropping the child off at a church or childrens home wont work. she's got to kill it. that I have a problem with.

At the very least someone should have to go through mandetory councling so they know what they are doing prior to having one. It is not like going in for liposuction. There is body scarring, it can prevent you from getting pregnant later, and the emotional stress of the decision has caused many to commit suicide. And I find it ludicrous that they allow young girls to have one without parent knowledge. how the hell is that legal? if someone performed liposuction on my child without my knowledge I could sue the pracatice, shut it down prosecut crimially, and take the doctors license to practice away. It is legal to practice medicine on a minor without parental consent. and yet abortion is somehow exempt?

(and yes granted that if the girl feels like she can't go to her parents there is something wrong at home, I still have a major issue with it.)

State judicial systems have ruled on that one too. The government doesn't have the right to say two of the same sex can't marry.

gay marriage is a different issue (I don't know why the two get lumped) My cousing married his boyfriend of 3 years in california last summer and I was proud of him. Proud that he actually commited himself to one person for the rest of his life rather than falling into the whole "free love" thing. For me I support gay marriage in every way except the title. My be it's being old fashioned or maybe it's being christian but that word I have set out as being between a man and woman. So give them a new word and give them all the same rights as marriage. Let them be wed, let them adopt children (or have them with a willing freind). And let them have divorce if they feel it's not workign out. but the word I have and issue with and maybe it's my issue, sure, but there it is.

[Triprift]

It is a basic human right and not just for women who are raped for all women. I just think its wrong that in Ireland women cannot have abortions and have to go to Britain just because the church has managed to infulence law makers into making it illegal. Im sure all religous ppl would love it if that was the case worldwide i just hope that in 20 to 30 years time the younsters who get in politics will enact change as at the moment if your pro Abortion euthanasia no one will listen to you and call you immoral.

[FordGT90Concept]

I don't know why the two get lumped
Both are social/political/judicial issues (started out as a social problem, clarity was given to it by the judicial branch, and the political branch disagrees with the judicial decision). Judges ruled already so people that disagreed with the ruling are trying to get the political process to override what the judicial branch ruled. The correct channel is the judicial branch and fighting it all the way to the supreme court, not the legislative branch. It always ends up as stalemate between the legislative and executive branches. This is why the Supreme Court has nine justices--stalemates are impossible.

I like the way Justice Scalia put it: "If the vote is not close, we must have missed something."

[hat]

Got raped? Take a M.A.P.

Wow, this exploded into more than I was hoping for really. I only wished to illustrate that killing a pregnant woman counts as multiple counts of murder but abortion doesn't. I didn't mean to get into a philosophical debate.

[FordGT90Concept]

Who is going to file the charge? Information surrounding an abortion is kept under patient/doctor confidentiality so it's not like the DA can jump on all the women that had abortions.

I think they only time abortions have gone to court is parents suing their child that had an abortion without their consent.

[Chris]

To make a long story short. Abortion is voluntary, murder is not.

[JC316]

Got raped? Take a M.A.P.

Wow, this exploded into more than I was hoping for really. I only wished to illustrate that killing a pregnant woman counts as multiple counts of murder but abortion doesn't. I didn't mean to get into a philosophical debate.

Sorry man, but that's like opening the cage to an angry tiger and wondering why he came out and mauled you.

Lets start with the original question. Why can someone be charged for two murders, but a woman can have an abortion?

Well, in killing a pregnant woman, I would have to assume that the mother wanted the child to be born and grow. Looking to a future event, the murderer denied the mothers decision to allow a grouping of cells to grow into a human being, thus creating murder.

A woman that wants to abort is not going to allow a clear mistake to grow beyond a few cells and become a life of it's own, thus she is simply killing off a few cells.

If I was on a jury where a pregnant woman wanted an abortion and was killed, I would not say that the killer murdered them both as the child would have never been born to begin with.

The problem with the religious groups is that it's black and white, no gray. Let me play the religious nut here... You say that if a woman is raped, the get the M.A.P, well since the Lord works in mysterious ways, he sent that man to rape her, thus giving her a child, so no, you can't abort.

My stand on abortion is that it's the woman's choice. She is the one going through hell to have this kid, she is the one that takes care of it. If it was a mistake, or if she feels that she can't handle it, then it's her right to abort that child. If her soul hangs in the balance, then it's her choice, not yours, or mine, or anyone elses. Religious factions are nothing more than dictatorships trying to tell people what to do.

[Chris]

My stand on abortion is that it's the woman's choice. She is the one going through hell to have this kid, she is the one that takes care of it. If it was a mistake, or if she feels that she can't handle it, then it's her right to abort that child. If her soul hangs in the balance, then it's her choice, not yours, or mine, or anyone elses. Religious factions are nothing more than dictatorships trying to tell people what to do.
I completely agree.

[hat]

@Chris: Murder is voluntary from the murder's standpoint, just as abortion is not voluntary from the growing child's standpoint.

@JC136: When you break it down, you too are just a "grouping of cells", just as your computer is nothing more than a grouping of atoms.

[FordGT90Concept]

Society doesn't encourage children to make their own decisions until somewhere around 14-16.

[DaMulta]

It's murder in states like Texas where they let you have them at 6 months.....

I only believe it should take place in the first trimester/when a normal miscarriage takes place.


BTW did you all know that 11year olds can now by the day after pill ROFL

[DaMulta]

Former Reagan administration Secretary of Education Bill Bennett dismissed such "far-reaching, extensive extrapolations" by declaring that if "you wanted to reduce crime ... if that were your sole purpose, you could abort every black baby in this country, and your crime rate would go down." Bennett conceded that aborting all African-American babies "would be an impossible, ridiculous, and morally reprehensible thing to do," then added again, "but the crime rate would go down."

http://mediamatters.org/clips/200509280006

LOL They have banned this from youtube OMG

IDK why this thread made me think of this guy OMG I JUST can't believe he said that lol....

[yogurt_21]

It's murder in states like Texas where they let you have them at 6 months.....

I only believe it should take place in the first trimester/when a normal miscarriage takes place.


BTW did you all know that 11year olds can now by the day after pill ROFL

I agree anything past the first trimeter is beyond the... well i'll call it a grace period.

if you took that long to make up your mind or find out you can take 26 more weeks and then give it up for adoption.

it's not like pregnancy is the end all be all of torture.

http://mediamatters.org/clips/200509280006

LOL They have banned this from youtube OMG

IDK why this thread made me think of this guy OMG I JUST can't believe he said that lol....

umm wtf I vote to euthanize that guy

[DaMulta]

I know someone who went to texas and had one at the 6 month mark. IT FUCKED with his head badly.'

The baby cried then died...(hard to even think of)...and to think BUSH the man against steam cell SO HUGELY could not stop that from happening in the state that he was Governor in....

[FordGT90Concept]

It's murder in states like Texas where they let you have them at 6 months.....

I only believe it should take place in the first trimester/when a normal miscarriage takes place.
Most women don't know they are pregnant in the first trimester. Most abortions actually occur in the second trimester.

[yogurt_21]

Most women don't know they are pregnant in the first trimester. Most abortions actually occur in the second trimester.

you just called most women morons.

edit: I'll clarify and seriously based on that statement I'm going to ahve to assume you've no wife and aren't sexually active.

any woman who goes 3 months and doesn't notice she's not having a period is in need of mental councling or is in extreme denial. Second women who are pregnant have regular discharge throughout the month, anyone who has that and doesn't get it checked is a moron. third and final statemnet on that ludicrous statement the fact is most women find out they are pregnant at 5-8 weeks. any ob can confirm that for you.

[FordGT90Concept]

I don't know I have a kidney stone until it hurts. That doesn't make me a moron.

Some women can see the signs almost immediately (usually the ones that get very ill while pregnant). Others might not even know until late second/early third trimester.

[yogurt_21]

I don't know I have a kidney stone until it hurts. That doesn't make me a moron.

Some women can see the signs almost immediately (usually the ones that get very ill while pregnant). Others might not even know until late second/early third trimester.

umm hello missed period at 4 weeks, all symptoms start then or earlier. hence the 8 week on the long side as those women were denying it.

finding out in the 3rd trimeter put the stats at less than a tenth of a percent

morning sickness, fatigue, etc. you've obviousny no experience in this area so let's move on.

[FordGT90Concept]

90% of abortions occur in the first term.

My mother was a bad source of info on that one. :x

[yogurt_21]

90% of abortions occur in the first term.

My mother was a bad source of info on that one. :x

ah so then it's only 10% I have an issue with. that actually makes me feel better.

[JC316]

@Chris: Murder is voluntary from the murder's standpoint, just as abortion is not voluntary from the growing child's standpoint.

@JC136: When you break it down, you too are just a "grouping of cells", just as your computer is nothing more than a grouping of atoms.

Very true hat, I am nothing more than a reflection of energy, but you are not taking the true consciousness, the soul if you will. Look into a mirror, the image you see, do you define that as you? If so, when the body dies, then you die. I don't believe that, I do not view my face or my body as ME. I view the body like a car that I drive, just because you sit in the drivers seat does not make you a car.

An undeveloped child has no mind, or consciousness to define what it is, thus it's not even human. Once the child develops a personality and traits of it's own, THAT is when it becomes life and becomes a crime to stop it.

[LittleLizard]

I dont care as A) if i got a girl and she got pregnant, either i will leave her or i will be the father and B) gay marriage is OK but i dont care as im not gay.

[Steevo]

A speech by Senator Mike Dewine, reprinted from the Congressional Record Vol 145, No. 54 April 20 1999
Mr. DeWINE. Mr. President, one of the key virtues of living in a free society such as our own is that it's harder for injustice to remain hidden and unreported. Unlike Communist and fascist countries--countries where the government can control access to information, and cover up genocide and war crimes for years--in our country, people are allowed to stand up and tell the truth. They can reveal inconvenient and unpleasant facts about moral evils that are taking place in our society.

To speak the truth--to distinguish right from wrong, you don't have to be a President, or a Senator, or a famous human rights crusader like Martin Luther King, Jr. You can be anybody. You can be a medical technician in Cincinnati, OH.

Mr. President, let me tell you a story about how--very recently, in my home State of Ohio--some disturbing truths were revealed that many Amencans simply wish would go away

On April 6, a young woman went into an abortion clinic in Montgomery County, OH, to undergo a procedure known as partial-birth abortion. This is a procedure that usually takes place behind closed doors, where it can be ignored, its moral status left unquestioned.

But this particular procedure was different. In this procedure, on April 6, things did not go as planned. Here's what happened.

The Dayton, OH, abortionist, Dr. Martin Haskell, started a procedure to dilate her cervix, so the child could eventually be removed and killed. He applied seaweed to start the procedure. He then sent her home--because this procedure usually takes 2 or 3 days. In fact, the patient is supposed to return on the second day for a further application of seaweed--and then come back a third time for the actual partial-birth abortion--a 3-day procedure.

So the woman went home to Cincinnati, expecting to return to Dayton and complete the procedure in 2 or 3 days. But her cervix dilated far too quickly. Shortly after midnight on the first day, after experiencing severe stomach pains, she was admitted to Bethesda North Hospital in Cincinnati.

The child was born. After 3 hours and 8 minutes, this little girl died.

The cause of death was listed on the death certificate as 'prematurity secondary to induced abortion.'

True enough, Mr. President. But also on the death certificate is a space for 'Method of death.' And it says, in the case of this child, 'Method of death: natural.

I do not mean to quarrel, talk about whether this is true in the technical sense. But if you look at the events that led up to her death, you'll see that there was really nothing natural about them at all.

The medical technician who held that little girl for the 3 hours and 8 minutes of her short life named her Baby Hope. Baby Hope did not die of natural causes. She was the victim of a barbaric procedure that is opposed by the vast majority of the American people. A procedure that has twice been banned by act of Congress--only to see the ban repeatedly overturned by a Presidential veto.

The death of Baby Hope did not take place behind the closed doors of an abortion clinic. It took place in public--in a hospital dedicated to saving lives, not taking them. Her death reminds us of the brutal reality and tragedy of what partial-birth abortion really is.

When we voted to ban partial-birth abortions, we talked about this procedure in graphic detail. The public reaction to this disclosure--the disclosure of what partial-birth abortion really is--was loud and it was decisive. And there is a very good reason for this. The procedure is barbaric.

One of the first questions people ask is 'why?' 'Why do they do this procedure? Is it really necessary? Why do we allow this to happen?'

Dr. C. Everett Koop speaks for the consensus of the medical profession when he says this is never a medically necessary procedure. Even Martin Haskell--the abortionist in the Baby Hope case--has admitted that at least 80 percent of the partial-birth abortions he performs are elective.

The facts are clear. Partial-birth abortion is not that rare a procedure. What is rare is that we--as a society--saw it happen. It happened by surprise at a regular hospital where it wasn't supposed to happen.

Baby Hope was not supposed to die in the arms a medical technician. But she did. And this little baby cannot be easily ignored. We cannot turn our back on this reality.

This procedure is not limited to mothers and fetuses who are in danger. It is performed on healthy women--and healthy babies--all the time.

The goal of a partial birth abortion is not to protect somebody's health but to kill a child. That is what the abortionist wants to do.

Dr. Haskell himself has said as much. In an interview with the American Medical News, he said:

"You could dilate further and deliver the baby alive but that's really not the point."

The point is, you are attempting to do an abortion, and that is the goal of your work, is to complete an abortion, not to see how do I manipulate the situation so I get a live birth instead.

Now Dr. Haskell has admitted what the reality is. Why don't we?

Again, let's hear Dr. Haskell in his own words, a man who performed this abortion on Baby Hope. This is what Dr. Haskell says about this 'procedure.'

These are Dr. Haskell's words:

"I just kept on doing the D&E's [dilation and extraction] because that is what I was comfortable with, up until 24 weeks. But they were very tough. Sometimes it was a 45-minute operation. I noticed some of the later D&Es were very, very easy. So I asked myself why can't they all happen this way. You see the easy ones would have a foot length presentation, you'd reach up and grab the foot of the fetus, pull the fetus down and the head would hang up and then you would collapse the head and take it out. It was easy."

It was easy, Mr. President. Easy for Dr. Haskell. He does not say it was easy for the mother, and he certainly does not say it was easy for the baby. I suspect he doesn't care. His goal is to perform abortions. But is he the person we are going to trust to decide when abortions are necessary? Dr. Haskell has a production line going in Dayton, OH. Nothing is going to stop him from meeting his quota.

Dr. Haskell continues. Again, the words of Dr. Haskell:

"At first, I would reach around trying to identify a lower extremity blindly with the tip of my instrument. I'd get it right about 30-50 percent of the time. Then I said, 'Well, gee, if I just put the ultrasound up there, I could see it all and I wouldn't have to feel around for it.' I did that and sure enough, I found it 99 percent of the time. Kind of serendipity."

Serendipity, Mr. President.

Let me conclude. We need to ask ourselves, what does our toleration in this country of this procedure' say about us as a nation? Where do we draw the line? At what point do we finally stop saying, 'Well, I don't really like this, but it doesn't really matter to me, so I will put up with it'? When do we stop saying that as a country, Mr. President? At what point do we say, Unless we stop this from happening, we cannot justly call ourselves a civilized Nation'?

When you come right down to it, America's moral anesthetic is wearing off. It really is. We know what is going on behind the curtain, and we cannot wish that knowledge away. We have to face it, and we have to do what is right.

This week, some of my colleagues and I will be reintroducing the Partial-Birth Abortion Ban Act. Twice in the last 3 years, Congress has passed thislegislation with strong bipartisan support, only to see it fall victim to a Presidential veto. Once again, I am confident Congress will do the right thing and pass this very important legislation. But that is not enough. Passing this legislation in Congress is not enough. For lives to be saved, the bill must actuallybecome law.

Mr. President, if something happens behind the Iron curtain of an abortion clinic, it is easier to pretend it simply did not happen. But the death of Baby Hope in Cincinnati, OH, in the last few dayshas torn that curtain, revealing the truth of this barbaric procedure.

Let people not ask about us 50 years from now: How could they not have known? or ask: Why didn't they do anything? because, Mr. President, the fact is, we do know and we must take action.

I yield the floor.


http://joseromia.tripod.com/gtext.html

---------------------------------------------------------------------




No problem, just another abortion, right?

[FordGT90Concept]

In the U.S., a federal statute defines "partial-birth abortion" as any abortion in which the fetus is extracted "past the navel [of the fetus]... outside the body of the mother," or "in the case of head-first presentation, the entire fetal head is outside the body of the mother," in order to cause death of the fetus.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intact_dilation_and_extraction#Partial-birth_abortion
That, I can't support. If you have to dilate the cervix to perform the abortion, the fetus is developed enough to be considered human.

The only way that should be tolerated is if the fetus is already dead (which isn't an abortion at all).

These "partial-birth abortions" are performed late second trimester and early third trimester.

[Wile E]

you just called most women morons.

edit: I'll clarify and seriously based on that statement I'm going to ahve to assume you've no wife and aren't sexually active.

any woman who goes 3 months and doesn't notice she's not having a period is in need of mental councling or is in extreme denial. Second women who are pregnant have regular discharge throughout the month, anyone who has that and doesn't get it checked is a moron. third and final statemnet on that ludicrous statement the fact is most women find out they are pregnant at 5-8 weeks. any ob can confirm that for you.None of that is true 100% of the time. I know of 2 women, personally, who continued to have a normal period for 4 months into their pregnancies, and thought they were simply putting on a little weight. There are NO absolutes when it comes to things of this nature.

Also, there are some that don't have a regular period to begin with, due to certain forms of birth control. How are they supposed to know they are pregnant? The only clue would likely be weight gain. When it started to show, they would begin to question it.


I have plenty experience with marriage and pregnancies, btw. lol.

[yogurt_21]

None of that is true 100% of the time. I know of 2 women, personally, who continued to have a normal period for 4 months into their pregnancies, and thought they were simply putting on a little weight. There are NO absolutes when it comes to things of this nature.

Also, there are some that don't have a regular period to begin with, due to certain forms of birth control. How are they supposed to know they are pregnant? The only clue would likely be weight gain. When it started to show, they would begin to question it.


I have plenty experience with marriage and pregnancies, btw. lol.

that entire post was pointless as that was covered my me using the word "most"

[DaMulta]

That was the most sickest fucking thing I have ever fucking seen in my mother fucking life.

This is not fucking 4chan!

[Steevo]

You are right, but if an abortion doesn't bother you then the act of it and the outcome should be fine too right?

This isn't aimed at anyone personally, but just a revelation of what it actually is, and does.


I do not believe abortion should ever be a option. In a survey over 80% of women who have had an abortion and saw the process or understood it later, felt remorse and or regret in having the procedure. However some women use this as a form of birth control in high earning areas. This involves rape and molestation cases. Children of rape, why should a life have to suffer for the insensitive and criminal act of another? If you believe the woman will really feel better after having an abortion then look again at the percentage that don't feel good after.


Use the morning after pill, or there is a plant leaf that causes the lining to be shed with the egg before it attaches. But don't wait until it is a real fetus and kill it.

[DaMulta]

I clearly stated in this thread as others before you about being totaly against late term 6month abortions and that it is really wrong.

And what sick fuck plays with fetus hands and feet?

You know before abortion was legal women used to stick coat hangers up there, and not every woman should have kids........

I don't think that many women use it as a forum of birth control. And yes I think women really think about this hard before they go. Yes they would always think down the road if they didn't, but they had reasons to when they did.

[El Fiendo]

Yea, I'd have to question the sanity of the person who took, or made those pictures. Not to mention its hypocritical nature. If the point is that human life is sacred even at this early stage, why mutilate the corpses. You're making yourself worse than what you're trying to fight against.

What I don't get is what people who are against abortion will think happens after that. Ok, so she has the kid. Then what. Most abortions come about because the mom feels she's unequipped to handle the kid (even though she may be) OR she 'doesn't want it' (which in my mind, perfectly shows she's unequipped). So, this kid is probably going to be doomed to a life of an unloving / uncaring / ill-equipped parent. Or perhaps the kid hops around from adoption agency to adoption agency. Maybe... MAYBE being lucky enough to get a adoptive parents which, even then, doesn't mean a happy life. However with the glut of kids in the orphanages, its slim chances. There is still a chance the kid comes out alright as an adult, but there is a much more likely scenario that the kid simply becomes a dreg of society. The mothers do this because they feel its best for their child. You didn't do it because you thought it best not to.

Clearly abortion isn't an option in your eyes. So, are you going to take care of the kids that result? Its pretty easy to say no to abortion when there's no responsibility placed on you. The original parents obviously should be responsible, but they're obviously not if this happened. In most cases anyways, don't jump down my throat about rape. Me? I'd hope to never have to be in that situation. Due to the simple reason that I think myself more responsible than most kids these days. Now there's a thought. Instead of being reactionary, maybe everyone should be taking more steps to change the cause. Or maybe people should just stop imposing their views on everyone else because they feel they're more right.

Just a note, this wasn't at anyone in particular so let's not flame war about this.

[T3hPwn3r3r]

I agree with El Fiendo.

Everything he said hit the nail on the head way better than I could've this early in the morning :P

[Steevo]

Yea, I'd have to question the sanity of the person who took, or made those pictures. Not to mention its hypocritical nature. If the point is that human life is sacred even at this early stage, why mutilate the corpses. You're making yourself worse than what you're trying to fight against.

What I don't get is what people who are against abortion will think happens after that. Ok, so she has the kid. Then what. Most abortions come about because the mom feels she's unequipped to handle the kid (even though she may be) OR she 'doesn't want it' (which in my mind, perfectly shows she's unequipped). So, this kid is probably going to be doomed to a life of an unloving / uncaring / ill-equipped parent. Or perhaps the kid hops around from adoption agency to adoption agency. Maybe... MAYBE being lucky enough to get a adoptive parents which, even then, doesn't mean a happy life. However with the glut of kids in the orphanages, its slim chances. There is still a chance the kid comes out alright as an adult, but there is a much more likely scenario that the kid simply becomes a dreg of society. The mothers do this because they feel its best for their child. You didn't do it because you thought it best not to.

Clearly abortion isn't an option in your eyes. So, are you going to take care of the kids that result? Its pretty easy to say no to abortion when there's no responsibility placed on you. The original parents obviously should be responsible, but they're obviously not if this happened. In most cases anyways, don't jump down my throat about rape. Me? I'd hope to never have to be in that situation. Due to the simple reason that I think myself more responsible than most kids these days. Now there's a thought. Instead of being reactionary, maybe everyone should be taking more steps to change the cause. Or maybe people should just stop imposing their views on everyone else because they feel they're more right.

Just a note, this wasn't at anyone in particular so let's not flame war about this.


YOu have read and understood what happens during an abortion right?




The doctors must reassemble the fetus and make sure nothing was missed during the extraction or evacuation.


First a device is inserted into the vagina that forces the cervix open over the course of a day, then another larger one is put in, and that stays in for a day. Then the woman returns and has that removed, at which time they break her water if it hasn't happened already. At this point the fetus is somewhat crushed by the collapse of the uterus, and the blood supply is limited.


Then they take a stainless ended surgical wet vac and start sucking out the fetus in little pieces, only big enough to fit through the opening. The doctor uses a ultrasound to help locate the fetus. So you have a fetus with a functional nervous system being ripped apart and sucked out of the uterus into a cup. the doctor then reassembles the majority of the fetus, photographs it for prevention of a malpractice suit later, and discards it.


The whore woman then goes out as soon as two weeks after, and resumes fucking around with every tom, dick ,and harry as they say.



So did they mutilate the fetus, then take pics. YES, but that is what someone paid them to do. ;)


Again, I do not support, or think abortion is a option. If a woman does not want a child, just having an abortion is not the best option, give the child away, there are thousands of people who want children. Plus the remorse she will probably feel later, and the lack of a lesson she learns for fucking around.

[Steevo]

I clearly stated in this thread as others before you about being totaly against late term 6month abortions and that it is really wrong.

And what sick fuck plays with fetus hands and feet?

You know before abortion was legal women used to stick coat hangers up there, and not every woman should have kids........

I don't think that many women use it as a forum of birth control. And yes I think women really think about this hard before they go. Yes they would always think down the road if they didn't, but they had reasons to when they did.

Do more research. I know no one wants to, but spouting off what you believe VS the facts.....




Abortion is no longer primarily an act of teenage desperation.

Abortion is no longer primarily an act of teenage desperation; instead, more and more it is the calculated choice of adults unwilling to accept responsibility for their behavior. Abortion is becoming more “rare” among the nation’s teens, but a larger percentage of women in their mid to late 20s –– women who are supposed to be responsible, mature and informed –– are, to put it bluntly, using abortion as a form of birth control.

Sensible people are glad to see that teen abortions are declining dramatically and that the total number of abortions is also declining. The abstinence message is getting through to teens, and sonogram technology is making possible increased awareness of the humanity of those babies in the womb.

It is also good news that between 1994 and 1998, the number of abortion clinics in the United States decreased by more than 40 percent simply because not enough doctors are willing to provide the abortions and fewer women are asking for them. In addition, more and more doctors are refusing to perform abortions and many medical students are declining to become licensed for the procedure.

While abortion clinics are closing because of the decline in business, Pregnancy Resource Centers (PRCs) are springing up everywhere. In 1980, there were only 500 across the nation. By 1990 there were 2,000, and now there are at least 4,000.

That’s the good news on the abortion front.

The bad news is that abortions to women over 25 have risen dramatically. Over the past decade, the percentage has grown from 35 percent of the total number of abortions to more than 48 percent in 2000. This contrasts with teen abortions, which have declined during the same period, and abortions to women 20-24, which have remained stable at about one-third of the total.

The real shocker, though, is that it is more common for women to have repeat abortions (some four or more) and to have abortions after already giving birth to living children. Obviously, 25-year-old women and women who are already mothers should know how to exercise self-control and to use contraceptives responsibly and effectively.

According to the Alan Guttmacher Institute, 6 million American women become pregnant every year — almost half of them unmarried. The abortion rate for unmarried women is four times greater than that of married women. Obviously, these women engage in irresponsible and risky sexual behavior with men who are poor candidates for marriage and even worse candidates for fatherhood. Of those 3 million unmarried pregnant women, almost half have an abortion and almost half become single mothers. Very few of them marry the father of their child or give the child up for adoption.

Sadly, abortion has made it easier for irresponsible men to turn their backs on women and the children they conceive. Ironically, though, most unmarried women are living with the man who fathered their child. Nevertheless, they do not even consider marriage and never consider releasing the child for adoption to a couple on the long lists of those desperate to have a child. Many women would not consider marrying because they "have to," and they think that giving a child up for adoption is "cruel." Yet, it is not considered cruel to abort an “unwanted” child that the man is unwilling to support.

During the time that the number of repeat abortions has been increasing, the number of women who choose abortion for the first time has decreased very steadily. Women who had not previously had a live birth accounted for 90 percent of the decline in the number of abortions from 1990 to 2000 –– only 40 percent of all abortions. By the late 1990s, though, more than 45 percent of all abortions were being performed on women with previous abortions. By the year 2000, the share of abortions accounted for by women with children increased to 60 percent of the total.

In summary, over the past couple of decades, abortion has enabled women to engage in sexual activity without marriage or any other commitment –– regardless of whether either person is able or willing to commit to a permanent relationship and regardless of whether either person is willing or able to take responsibility for the consequences. That’s the driving force behind the so-called “pro-choice” movement.


----------------------------------------------------------------------


60% in 2000 were repeats........

That number has changed some.


However, the numbers of those not using a contraceptive, and repeats have gone up...... http://www.contracept.org/abortifacient.php



Seems like the number of abortions isn't those poor innocent teens and rape victims. But the whores and floozies you find floating around the bars and clubs.


Much easier not to have all those complications caused by maturity, and sexual responsibility.

[T3hPwn3r3r]

Do more research. I know no one wants to, but spouting off what you believe VS the facts.....




Abortion is no longer primarily an act of teenage desperation.

Abortion is no longer primarily an act of teenage desperation; instead, more and more it is the calculated choice of adults unwilling to accept responsibility for their behavior. Abortion is becoming more “rare” among the nation’s teens, but a larger percentage of women in their mid to late 20s –– women who are supposed to be responsible, mature and informed –– are, to put it bluntly, using abortion as a form of birth control.

Sensible people are glad to see that teen abortions are declining dramatically and that the total number of abortions is also declining. The abstinence message is getting through to teens, and sonogram technology is making possible increased awareness of the humanity of those babies in the womb.

It is also good news that between 1994 and 1998, the number of abortion clinics in the United States decreased by more than 40 percent simply because not enough doctors are willing to provide the abortions and fewer women are asking for them. In addition, more and more doctors are refusing to perform abortions and many medical students are declining to become licensed for the procedure.

While abortion clinics are closing because of the decline in business, Pregnancy Resource Centers (PRCs) are springing up everywhere. In 1980, there were only 500 across the nation. By 1990 there were 2,000, and now there are at least 4,000.

That’s the good news on the abortion front.

The bad news is that abortions to women over 25 have risen dramatically. Over the past decade, the percentage has grown from 35 percent of the total number of abortions to more than 48 percent in 2000. This contrasts with teen abortions, which have declined during the same period, and abortions to women 20-24, which have remained stable at about one-third of the total.

The real shocker, though, is that it is more common for women to have repeat abortions (some four or more) and to have abortions after already giving birth to living children. Obviously, 25-year-old women and women who are already mothers should know how to exercise self-control and to use contraceptives responsibly and effectively.

According to the Alan Guttmacher Institute, 6 million American women become pregnant every year — almost half of them unmarried. The abortion rate for unmarried women is four times greater than that of married women. Obviously, these women engage in irresponsible and risky sexual behavior with men who are poor candidates for marriage and even worse candidates for fatherhood. Of those 3 million unmarried pregnant women, almost half have an abortion and almost half become single mothers. Very few of them marry the father of their child or give the child up for adoption.

Sadly, abortion has made it easier for irresponsible men to turn their backs on women and the children they conceive. Ironically, though, most unmarried women are living with the man who fathered their child. Nevertheless, they do not even consider marriage and never consider releasing the child for adoption to a couple on the long lists of those desperate to have a child. Many women would not consider marrying because they "have to," and they think that giving a child up for adoption is "cruel." Yet, it is not considered cruel to abort an “unwanted” child that the man is unwilling to support.

During the time that the number of repeat abortions has been increasing, the number of women who choose abortion for the first time has decreased very steadily. Women who had not previously had a live birth accounted for 90 percent of the decline in the number of abortions from 1990 to 2000 –– only 40 percent of all abortions. By the late 1990s, though, more than 45 percent of all abortions were being performed on women with previous abortions. By the year 2000, the share of abortions accounted for by women with children increased to 60 percent of the total.

In summary, over the past couple of decades, abortion has enabled women to engage in sexual activity without marriage or any other commitment –– regardless of whether either person is able or willing to commit to a permanent relationship and regardless of whether either person is willing or able to take responsibility for the consequences. That’s the driving force behind the so-called “pro-choice” movement.


----------------------------------------------------------------------


60% in 2000 were repeats........

That number has changed some.


However, the numbers of those not using a contraceptive, and repeats have gone up...... http://www.contracept.org/abortifacient.php



Seems like the number of abortions isn't those poor innocent teens and rape victims. But the whores and floozies you find floating around the bars and clubs.


Much easier not to have all those complications caused by maturity, and sexual responsibility.
Entire article is BS, proof lies in:
"The abstinence message is getting through to teens,"

[JC316]

That is fucking sick Steevo. People are quite happy not to have to see shit like that, and you had better be glad that I am not a mod here. There are things that you know happen, but don't want to see.

Let me find some videos of pigs being castrated, or perhaps a chicken being slaughtered. Maybe car wreck victims with their brains spewed all over the concrete. All of these things happen daily, but you don't see people posting them in threads.

Bottom line, why do you give a 5 cent fuck what happens to all those innocent babies? Is your soul/ass on the line? Why don't you adopt 15 kids to encourage others? How about donate some cash to the cause of stopping it? Nah, that takes action, you would prefer to post some of the sickest goddamned pictures that you can find. You are so against it, do something about it.

[RevengE]

Clean this Thread up or I will close it. NO MORE PICTURES LIKE THAT, No Flaming, if you can't handle debates in a mature fashion it will be closed.

[Steevo]

I was handling it in a mature fashion. I simply posted the pics of what happens during a procedure, and the pics resulting. I know it is common for people to jeer and snigger their way through school when it comes to sex ed, and this isn't covered, but to close your eyes to the ugly truth and pretend it isn't real is a farce.



Simply put, if you can't stomach what you are doing, then don't do it, don't support it, don't pretend it is all cookies and cake when it is a bloddy mess.


I am not flaming anyone here, just providing the honest truth, and if that offends you, tough.

[LittleLizard]

as i thought, this thread became a debate of crap.

DO LIKE ME, DONT HAVE FEELINGS, DONT CARE ABOUT THIS.

[Steevo]

Entire article is BS, proof lies in:
"The abstinence message is getting through to teens,"

You are right, it was a bit preachy, however that does not make the facts any more wrong. To ignore the whole article as one sentance offends you is closed minded, and is the sort of thinking that started alot of bad things happening in history. So learn to find benefit in everything, even if all you find is what not to do. Take the good of the article and make use of it. That was all I was trying to do.


Facts are facts.


And to play devils advocate, it is true. If teens waited untill they were emotionally stable, fully educated, and ready to bear the consequence of sex before they started screwing this woudn't be a issue. However most teens believe they know the best for themselves and base that on the surge of hormones they have, a poor decision at best.


I know from experiance that my decions regarding sex during that age was more self motivated for pleasure and gratification than for a lasting relationship where a child, the product of sexual relations, could have been raised. So if I were to want something, I want my children to have a better education than I did about the subject, and to be able to make better choices for themselves, and possibly avoid regrets they might otherwise have.

[Steevo]

That is fucking sick Steevo. People are quite happy not to have to see shit like that, and you had better be glad that I am not a mod here. There are things that you know happen, but don't want to see.

Let me find some videos of pigs being castrated, or perhaps a chicken being slaughtered. Maybe car wreck victims with their brains spewed all over the concrete. All of these things happen daily, but you don't see people posting them in threads.

Bottom line, why do you give a 5 cent fuck what happens to all those innocent babies? Is your soul/ass on the line? Why don't you adopt 15 kids to encourage others? How about donate some cash to the cause of stopping it? Nah, that takes action, you would prefer to post some of the sickest goddamned pictures that you can find. You are so against it, do something about it.

You are right, people want to hide the truth in the back of their closet, only to let it out when they choose and when it could benefit them. Mebey if people had seen what it actually is, they might change their minds, and their "well founded" ideas would become worthless.


To become a state trooper you have to watch videos of some pretty gruesome accidents, same for paramedics, same for some police. To carry a tazer here you have to be tazed yourself, so you understand what it is like, and to actually ask yourself if it is worth it.


While you cannot get shot, be aborted or the like, if you can understand what happens and make a better educated decision so you do not have regrets later in life would you choose to be educated. To say no is to believe that the education system is worthless.


Why do I care? Lots of reasons really.

I feel life is too precious to just throw out.
If a being is able to experiance life, no matter how bad someone else deems it, it might be worth it to them, and unless you allow them to make the choice, you are deciding if they live or die. Do you really have that right?
I am unable to adopt every child, and even if I did, people would still close their eyes to the truth of the matter and continue. However with education and understanding they become responcible for their actions.





Who here feels they have the right to choose life or death for someone else? If you do, does someone else have the right to choose your life or death?

[Steevo]

None of that is true 100% of the time. I know of 2 women, personally, who continued to have a normal period for 4 months into their pregnancies, and thought they were simply putting on a little weight. There are NO absolutes when it comes to things of this nature.

Also, there are some that don't have a regular period to begin with, due to certain forms of birth control. How are they supposed to know they are pregnant? The only clue would likely be weight gain. When it started to show, they would begin to question it.


I have plenty experience with marriage and pregnancies, btw. lol.

True.



April had the Depo shot and now we have my son. :p

Side effects include, no period, weight gain, nausea........ same as pregnancy. We continued drinking and having fun untill we realized she was pregnant, and only then as she felt movements. She was exercising like hell to keep the weight off, and still couldn't understand why she was gaining weight.

She stopped and it did no damage, he is a too smart for his own good 3yr old now, he dimantles everything, and assembles shit, knows colors, a good portion of the alphabet, numbers..... knows how to work the PS2, TV, plays his keyboard and since it has keys that light up to teach, he kinda knows a couple songs.

[RevengE]

I was handling it in a mature fashion. I simply posted the pics of what happens during a procedure, and the pics resulting. I know it is common for people to jeer and snigger their way through school when it comes to sex ed, and this isn't covered, but to close your eyes to the ugly truth and pretend it isn't real is a farce.



Simply put, if you can't stomach what you are doing, then don't do it, don't support it, don't pretend it is all cookies and cake when it is a bloddy mess.


I am not flaming anyone here, just providing the honest truth, and if that offends you, tough.
My comment went for everyone.

[DaMulta]

What about the people that don't support it and don't want to see it Steevo? Those pics could really mess with those types of people even more!


Or did you just think of the people that support the right to choice?

[JC316]

Who here feels they have the right to choose life or death for someone else? If you do, does someone else have the right to choose your life or death?

All it takes is 12 people on a jury to kill someone in Texas......

[Steevo]

What about the people that don't support it and don't want to see it Steevo? Those pics could really mess with those types of people even more!


Or did you just think of the people that support the right to choice?

Information is information, if you looked at the source of the photos, it is from a anti-abortion site. They use it to educate people about the actual abortion procedure. They also have pics of partial birth abortions.



JC316: Yes, and the balance of people will hopefully hear all the evidence, and become educated about the case to make the decision regarding someone with enough evidence to be brought to trial.


They will deliberate, and hear both sides of the case, consider carefully the effects of their decision and deliver a decision the defendant will have a choice to appeal.



With abortion it is just a payment, schedule a time, and get it done.


So what is the value of a life today?



How much does an abortion cost?

[T3hPwn3r3r]

We have plenty of orphans already going from home to home.

Who's gonna miss a few babies? Not I.

[El Fiendo]

Steevo, I knew what happens, yes. And I thank you for reiterating it to everyone. However you can't tell me how many of those were posed is 'their job'. That is what I meant by mutilation. Its not just dismemberment its the posing (treatment) of the remnants. Take a picture, fine. Hell put a ruler beside it. Start putting all the limbs and the like on quarter pieces and photographing things that aren't required (individual toes and more) then that's losing sight of professionalism. Those photos are intended to strike directly at emotions and not at inspire rational thinking, and the last thing we need is the public being controlled through emotions even more than it already is.

"The whore woman then goes out as soon as two weeks after, and resumes fucking around with every tom, dick ,and harry as they say."

I assume you know this first hand? You did a poll on all women who have abortions yes?

"If a woman does not want a child, just having an abortion is not the best option, give the child away, there are thousands of people who want children. Plus the remorse she will probably feel later, and the lack of a lesson she learns for fucking around."

I agree there is a lack of a lesson. I feel humanity is circling the drain due to people not learning their lesson on many subjects. However where are you getting that there are thousands of people who want children. I seem to remember seeing there being a glut of children and not enough parents willing to take on kids. When did this change? Sources? I think bringing more kids into this world that will have a questionable if not downright poor upbringing isn't the solution. If you can show me that there is a greater number of parents than 'available' children, it'll go a long way in convincing me of your side of the argument.

[Steevo]

if not for the sick fucks performing the abortion, who took the pics then?


Google adoption rates.


This is really not that hard, unless you have a bias to not want to know.


Do women go right out after and continue fucking around? Look again at the statistics of multiple abortions.

[El Fiendo]

Calm down a touch Steevo, you're getting a little worked up.

It most likely was either the person who performed the abortion or the attending nurses. It was also they who broke doctor patient confidentiality and showed a severe lacking of professionalism in general. These photos were then uploaded to a website to strike up people's emotions instead of inciting rational thought. This is simply another means of controlling the populace and in the end does more harm than not.

I did Google adoption rates, and I can only assume the reason you didn't post the numbers is you found it equally as impossible to find as I did. It has nothing to do with a 'bias of not wanting to know'. I did however find many sources saying that abortion rates were declining since 1990. I also did a Google of multiple abortions. I found some very interesting numbers.

"Of the abortions reported in 1999 to the Centers for Disease Control (CDC), 26.2% of women who aborted had experienced one previous abortion; 11.2% had two previous abortions, and 7.5% had three or more previous abortions." Source (http://www.physiciansforlife.org/content/view/1252/26/)

This means that of the 861,789 abortions reported in 1999 (Source (http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G1-96029144.html)) that 215,447 had 1 prior abortion, 76,945 had 2 and 64,634 had 3. If anything I think this only points out that 141,579 women should consider having their tubes tied. Also, it shows that 44.90% of women who had abortions were 'repeat offenders', which is a far cry from them all being whores. I'm going to chock that one up to a touch of elitism though.

Now for the final bit, in 1999 there was a birth rate of 14.3 / 1000 (Source (http://www.photius.com/wfb1999/rankings/birth_rate_0.html)) and a population of 272,639,608 (Source (http://www.photius.com/wfb1999/rankings/population_0.html)) means there was 3,898,746 births in 1999. This means that with the abortion rate there was an estimated 4,760,535 pregnancies. This is not including the rate of miscarriages. This means that around 18% of births were aborted, and the number has been decreasing since (as reported by several sites, no specific sources provided).

If you can find me a number that says in 1999 there was 900,000 'extra' families looking to adopt children that didn't get the chance, I'll eat my words. I was unable to find this information. Trust me, I looked. What I do see is that 18% of pregnant women made their own choice to do this. What I also see is that you don't want 18% of the pregnant women to have that choice. You say that these 18% didn't have the right to decide on a life. You have even less to say on the matter because you're even further detached from the situation. You need to learn to let others make their own mistakes, and you probably would do well to learn it before too long. Otherwise you're going to have some very rough years with your child.

[Steevo]

I'm not gettig worked up about this.


I know about three families who woudl adopt, and two who have. The most unfortunate part of adoption is the rights of the parents who don't truly give a shit about the children other than they can get welfare for having them. And people like my brother in law used to be. 4 kids from 3 girls. And every one of the girls was/is a drug whore, and all of the children have been taken away, and despite being placed with families that are stable, and going to provide a good upbringing, the parental rights get in the way of them being adopted.


So I do have first hand experiance so to speak, my mother in law comes to visit them frequently. I still won't allow my brother in law in my home untill he proves he isn't tweaking out on meth and has cleaned up his life.


So shoud these children have been aborted? No, there are people who love and want them, and all that needs to happen is the drug addicted fuckups need to step out of the way. However just like everything else in this world the laws and rights of a piece of shit are in the way of what is good, and all they recieve is a slap on the wrist and the ability to continue to make everyone elses life hell.

Anyway, long story short. Any woman/man who is not in a position to raise a child and provide a stable loving enviroment should not be fucking, as 99.9 is still less than 100% and or they should be removed from the gene pool.


As for the repeat offenders, yes I agree tie the tubes. Also look a the rate increase of multiple abortions, it is coming up while the rest are going down.

[pepsi71ocean]

Weather or not you make abortions illegal, they will still happen. The only difference is that now it will go underground and the risk for death will rise because it will be done under unsafe conditions.

The same thing happened in the 1950's, poor people went to underground abortion clinics, while the rich flew out to Puerto Rico where they were legal. And then when the poor person died, or suffered mass infections for the poor conditions of the unsafe abortion clinic they were usually left to try and recover, because it was illegal to get an abortion so they couldn't take them to a hospital. So if they died they died.... Such is the case of the 19 million unsafe abortions performed some 70,000 women died from the direct result to the procedure, while its unknown how many died from infections created by the procure.

Abortions happen alot especially in the Asian world where men are wanted over women, such selective sex abortions happen on a regular basis.


What bothers me is when the government says what you can and can't do when it comes to things like this,
:DFor once Obama and i agree:D on abortions considering im a republican by nature, like Obama i am pro-choice.

Most abortions take place withing the first 12 weeks. When they are sucked out with a vacuum, And then without the mother supplying the blood and then oxygen there cells die just like skin cells. Separate systems like that don't develop until alot farther down the road.

Its a rumor that the kids are killed with knives in the spine, that only happens in Mexico, where there to cheap to use any humane methods of discharge. Oh and in Mexico you can get an abortion right up to the end, i believe ide have to check, Mexico doesn't have any abortion laws on the books, so it varies by the province.


I went through this argument with my gf, she is pro-life and im pro-choice. I agree with getting tubes tied, and what not.


Don't forget Roe Vs. Wade, and then the modified version set fourth in 1992 by the Supreme Court. In the case of Planned Parenthood Vs. Casey.


Steevo, usually pictures come from either staged abortions made by pro-lifers, or taken in places like Mexico where there are no confidentiality laws.

[yogurt_21]

Weather or not you make abortions illegal, they will still happen. The only difference is that now it will go underground and the risk for death will rise because it will be done under unsafe conditions.



not undergroud, out of country. many people are simply crossing the border to mexico, getting procedures done (not simply abortions but everythign) at cheaper prices and coming back. some disfigured from botched jobs.

and I seriously doubt there are many who go in for multiple abortions. the emotional and physical drain is usually enough for them to never want to do it again. which is why I posted that mandetory counseling be put in as a stipulation. they need to knwo all the facts before they do it.

abortion clinics too often do not divulge the full nature of the procedure and the women is left physicaly and emotionally scarred by the event. if they knew before hand they would have been prepared or not gone through with it.

it should not be such an easy thing to "check in and get done same day" you can't do that with any other major procedure. including an D&C for a baby that has ALREADY died. how the hell does that make sense?

[pepsi71ocean]

not undergroud, out of country. many people are simply crossing the border to mexico, getting procedures done (not simply abortions but everythign) at cheaper prices and coming back. some disfigured from botched jobs.


It happens all the time in-country now. There was a case not to long ago about a 16 year old girl who had her bf hit her uterus with a baseball bat, did it enough to put her in the hospital, but the baby did die. The reason, she didn't want to tell her parents.

While the border states it might be truck what if you live in the midle of the country, or in the city or where you can't escape to mexico or Canada, what if your to poor to afford a trip out of country to get it? that is my point, is that those who can afford to leave will, but those who can't will have to be stuck with alternatives.

The point was it will still happen, weather its illegal or not. Hell anyone can make a hook out of a coathanger.


About adoptions, it takes on average 6-8 months to adopt a chinese baby, but over 3 years to adopt an american baby.






I think that if we "banned abortions/ or gave an option" we should take all the "unwanted" babies and put them into a governemnt run military school, and then raise them with the military diciplin. At 18 they are given a choice;

1. go into the work world(or college)
2. go into the military.

Ovousily, if we wanted to we could increase the worthwhileness to keep these kids in the system, there has to be a way to keep them enticed with staying in.

[Steevo]

"The world needs ditch diggers too"

[yogurt_21]

It happens all the time in-country now. There was a case not to long ago about a 16 year old girl who had her bf hit her uterus with a baseball bat, did it enough to put her in the hospital, but the baby did die. The reason, she didn't want to tell her parents.

While the border states it might be truck what if you live in the midle of the country, or in the city or where you can't escape to mexico or Canada, what if your to poor to afford a trip out of country to get it? that is my point, is that those who can afford to leave will, but those who can't will have to be stuck with alternatives.

The point was it will still happen, weather its illegal or not. Hell anyone can make a hook out of a coathanger.


About adoptions, it takes on average 6-8 months to adopt a chinese baby, but over 3 years to adopt an american baby.






I think that if we "banned abortions/ or gave an option" we should take all the "unwanted" babies and put them into a governemnt run military school, and then raise them with the military diciplin. At 18 they are given a choice;

1. go into the work world(or college)
2. go into the military.

Ovousily, if we wanted to we could increase the worthwhileness to keep these kids in the system, there has to be a way to keep them enticed with staying in.

adoptions at birth take less than a month, you're thinking of once they get into the system.

[pepsi71ocean]

adoptions at birth take less than a month, you're thinking of once they get into the system.

that could very well be the case, my g/f quoted that from one of her professors, she is going for social work a.k.a. DYFIS!!!!:eek: