American or European?

[Tigger]

I just wondered which people prefer,american or european cars/motorbikes.

So what have you got,jags,honda's,bmw's or chrysler',dodge etc.

[DrPepper]

European cars especially German.


Although I do love muscle cars.

[HolyCow02]

European cars especially German.


Although I do love muscle cars.

Double bonus for him! I currently drive a Volkswagen Jetta, but I really want a 2010 Audi S4... oh man so sexy.


I would love a Shelby GT though

[DrPepper]

Double bonus for him! I currently drive a Volkswagen Jetta, but I really want a 2010 Audi S4... oh man so sexy.


I would love a Shelby GT though

Wierd I like the jetta and the s4 and the shelby GT. Still on a provisional license though.

[RevengE]

I just sold my 1991 VW GTI very fun car. I currently have a 2004 Ford Svt Focus and soon I will be buying a F-250 powerstroke turbo diesel. I love german engineering, but also am a Huge American car guy. I used to have a 2004 Svt cobra that I sold as well..me and my fiancé are getting married in the near future and looking for a house so I need the money.

[DaMulta]

American cars. I like to be comfortable when I drive, and not feel like I'm in a cheap cardboard cut out box.

[A Cheese Danish]

American trucks, and some american cars, but I do enjoy some good ol' german engineering

[DaMulta]

American trucks, and some american cars, but I do enjoy some good ol' german engineering

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MxwZhWQYWcQ
ZR1:D

Corvettes are designed in Germany I think....

[A Cheese Danish]

Corvettes are designed in Germany I think....

Not too sure about that, but I do love Corvettes for their speed and cornering ability

[pcgolfer85]

Corvettes are designed in Germany I think....

haha! Corvettes are definitely NOT designed in Germany.

[DaMulta]

haha! Corvettes are definitely NOT designed in Germany.

I watched a show about it. The main reason is the autobahn is there, which gives them a place for high-speed test when they are designing them.

[UrbKlr]

I prefer mainly American cars, not much for european. I got an 88 z24 for free, which I'm fixing up for my first car:D

[DrPepper]

I watched a show about it. The main reason is the autobahn is there, which gives them a place for high-speed test when they are designing them.

I thought the autobahn was there so that hitler could move his troops around quickly and of course german drag racing.

Have you ever seen some of the german testing grounds. They are huge and so is their racing circuits like nurburgring etc.

[CyberDruid]

Buell.

That's really all I have to say :D

[3991v]

American cars for life!

[RevengE]

The autobahn was built by Adolf Hitler. it was to move troops from one part of the country to the other Fast.

[CyberDruid]

So was the EIsenhower Expressway here in the states...and it was designed by the same German...go figure. Buell sounds German don't it?

[JC316]

Hmm, they are both good for thier own reasons.

American Pros:
Easy and cheap to fix
Cheap purchase price
Auto transmission performance

American Cons:
Don't drive and handle as well
Can have cheaply made interiors
Usually suck gas mileage
Overall build quality suffers.

Euro Pros:
Run forever even when abused
usually great gas milage
usually great interior and build quality
outstanding handling

Euro cons:
Expensive/pain in the ASS to fix.
Auto transmission performance sucks
Expensive purchase price.

[LittleLizard]

i like americans, specialy mustangs

[SK-1]

German the best rounded. American muscle for thrust and sound, Italian for looks and everything else.

[LittleLizard]

German the best rounded. American muscle for thrust and sound, Italian for looks and everything else.

dont like that, but is the truth

[DanTheBanjoman]

I just wondered which people prefer,american or european cars/motorbikes.

So what have you got,jags,honda's,bmw's or chrysler',dodge etc.

Honda, from the great American state of Japan!

[SK-1]

I hate to admit, but as an American, I hate HD's.:( Every time I ride one, new or old, I get the same feeling. I even owned a Harley for 5 months, then traded for a ZX9 Ninja. They (HD'd) do hold the resale "value" though.

Kawasaki, Honda and others are light years ahead of American motorcycles.

I have a 99 Aurora (few bolt on's) that can actually pull on most stock HD's.:confused::confused:

[DrPepper]

I like honda's as opposed to the only other car I've drove was a mazda2. Then again comparing my dads car to my driving instructors is day and night lol.

[Wile E]

I like Japanese compacts, and American muscle. No automatic cars need apply, ever.

[Kurosagi]

japanese tuner cars for me :D oh and european cars my fav too

[blkhogan]

Give me a big heavy american made any day. If I get into a bad situation on the road I want to win!!! :D I do enjoy a good fast import once in a great while. I miss my 1974 240Z though, that car was just flat out fast and fun to drive. Nowadays I drive mostly trucks, big lifted car chomping trucks. The kind you can drive up the hood of a car. :p

[Bow]

Give me an american Big block anyday:D

[Black Panther]

Answer's right here...

http://www.junkmails.org/funny/european-american-women.jpg

Though seriously I'd prefer American cars like this:

http://www.imagecows.com/uploads/10c5-Hummer_HX_Concept.jpg

if only our roads catered for it...

[FordGT90Concept]

Anything Ford is at the top of my list...
Ford
Mercury
Lincoln
Volvo (to a lesser extent)

Following that, I like a lot of British and German cars like...
Porsche
Aston Martin
Jaguar
BMW (some of them)

I don't like most Italian/Asian cars.

I really don't like motorcycles no matter the brand.

[T3hPwn3r3r]

I'm actually wondering this exact same thing.

I, previously known as B1gg3stN00b, have returned, and I have 15 grand to spend on a car.

I have two options that interest me:
Cadillac CTS 3.6L AT
AND
Volkswagen Passat 2.0T 6AT

Cadillac:
Pros:
Powerful!
RWD handling

Cons:
Weather here gets icy a lot so RWD isn't ALWAYS a plus
Sucks gas, bad for my commute
Drab, dull interior

VW:
Pros:
Can gain horsepower fairly easy through APR ECU tune and basic, cheap bolt ons, decent aftermarket
Good on gas
Great interior
Safe as can be

Cons:
Expensive replacement parts
Not too much power stock
Tiptronic transmission has sketchy reliability, so I hear


The only cars with a manual transmission that I can find here are Acuras that have been riced and driven into the ground, and I commute through a lot of stop and go anyways so auto doesn't hurt

Can anyone expand upon my list of pros and cons?

Driving both, the CTS is definitely the most powerful, but I find the Passat more fun to drive and more appealing for its fuel economy as well

If it's tl;dr for you guys: I'm buying a new car and like the Passat 2.0T and CTS 3.6

Both have about 30k miles on them.

Wut car iz gud?

[DrPepper]

I'd get the passat.

Trying to convince my dad to get one so when I pass my test I can have it :D

[T3hPwn3r3r]

Yeah, they're glorious cars, but that CTS is also pretty sweet.

Basically... Heavy, plain muscle car vs. slower, more luxurious Euro car.

However I would get the 93 octane program from APR which gives 52 extra horsepower and 103 extra ft lb of torque for under the price of a new exhaust so long as you run premium fuel. It's also able to be turned off via the cruise control buttons.

[DrPepper]

The passat isn't bad power wise. I'm sure its lighter than the cadillac and engineering wise probably a bit more advanced, not that its a major factor or even a minor factor. I'd say it would be a bit slower but with a bit of tuning would be quite good.

[T3hPwn3r3r]

That's the thing though. Most tuners, especially 4 cylinders, end up making you look like a tool.

If I tune it, I will be as discrete as possible. 4 cylinder+bigger exhaust=FART.

[Wile E]

Yeah, they're glorious cars, but that CTS is also pretty sweet.

Basically... Heavy, plain muscle car vs. slower, more luxurious Euro car.

However I would get the 93 octane program from APR which gives 52 extra horsepower and 103 extra ft lb of torque for under the price of a new exhaust so long as you run premium fuel. It's also able to be turned off via the cruise control buttons.If you heard the AT in the Passat has sketchy reliability, the last thing you want to do is increase the power. It will just blow that much quicker. not only that, but the extra power also comes at the expense of gas mileage, since it's pretty much upping the boost.

That's the thing though. Most tuners, especially 4 cylinders, end up making you look like a tool.

If I tune it, I will be as discrete as possible. 4 cylinder+bigger exhaust=FART.Not the Techtonic Exhaust systems. They have a nice deep sound.

[T3hPwn3r3r]

The APR tune is just a remapping of the ECU, I heard it actually improved fuel economy.

As for the Tiptronic, it was only from one person, and reading other reviews... people seem to love it. Can you comment on the quality of VW automatics?

[Wile E]

The APR tune is just a remapping of the ECU, I heard it actually improved fuel economy.

As for the Tiptronic, it was only from one person, and reading other reviews... people seem to love it. Can you comment on the quality of VW automatics?

They're autos are usually a little better than most in the smaller cars, but I have no experience with the 6speeds.

And the computer controls boost on the turbo VWs. Upping the boost is how a simple tune nets 50hp increases, it would otherwise be impossible to gain that much at it's current power levels from simple timing and fuel adjustments.

[T3hPwn3r3r]

Oh true.

Do you think the stock engine/transmission would be able to handle that increase? I mean, the Audi/VW dealer here is a dealer of APR.

[Wile E]

Oh true.

Do you think the stock engine/transmission would be able to handle that increase? I mean, the Audi/VW dealer here is a dealer of APR.

I know the manual does, but I can't help you on the Auto. I just don't know what it's capable of, tbh. I can say that I'm never comfortable pushing too much extra power thru any stock auto.

[T3hPwn3r3r]

Eh, if I blow it, I can always load a Ford 427, T5 in it and do a RWD conversion! :P

[frankie827]

german cars are the only decent cars :D
mercedes benz and porsche the only way to go!
i drive a 2000 mb clk 430. my aunt who has worked at chrysler corp (at the headquarters) drives a 2009 porsche 911 carrera S, she won't buy american even after working for chrysler xD

favorite cars: mercedes benz clk 63 amg black series, lambourghini gallardo superleggera, porsche 911 gt2 or 911 turbo.

[Chris]

Neither, Japanese models for me :).

[1Kurgan1]

she won't buy american even after working for chrysler

Thats the problem, she worked for Chrysler.

I would just have a hard time spending that much money on that Porche when a brand new ZR1 is in the same ballpark or a ZO6, those would be my first choices.

[SK-1]

Not totally on topic, but I just found this funny.:D
http://generalnonsense.net/showthread.php?p=3788#post3788

[T3hPwn3r3r]

All I need is a VW with a 5 speed and I'm set.

German.

I'd take nothing over a good VAG, BMW, or M-B.

[1Kurgan1]

How about some....

http://www.myhomecooking.net/chocolate-chip-cookies/images/chocolate-chip-cookies.jpg

I like the German cars, but the VW scene is too much for me. Rusted hoods are in and massive camber angles that are beyond useful even on the track, and then it's on a street car, just too much.

[T3hPwn3r3r]

I don't rice.

Nor do I let my cars get into shit condition.

[1Kurgan1]

Oh I'm not saying you rice, and I'm not even sayign what the VW crowd does is rice. What they do is different. They do it to be different, but it just amkes no sense like rusted hoods on brand new cars.

http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/4011/dsc08414xc6.jpg

And then something like this, the spacers, white sidewalls, and 70's glasses, it's an image statement that just confuses me.

**EDIT**I forgot to add in, look at the back tire on the red VW, thats another thing they do. Small tires on bigger rims. I can't remember what it is called, but the actual lip of the rim is sticking out and the bead of the tire is sealed farther down in the rim, very dangerous and pretty much a rim killer.
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y288/gt02jettaz/South%20Florida%202007/100_0855.jpg

But I'm glad your not into that stuff, because I think the new VW/Audi's are great looking cars and can end up looking amazing with some good rims / tint / and minor lowering, that stuff above is just overboard.

[T3hPwn3r3r]

I would keep the wheels stock.

Rims are for people who think they're gangsta.

Same with minor lowering and tint.

I'm a white, red blooded, German-American!

[frankie827]

I would keep the wheels stock.

Rims are for people who think they're gangsta.

Same with minor lowering and tint.

I'm a white, red blooded, German-American!

i agree with you, but i'd consider changing the rims with rims from other cars made by that car maker just fine.

[frankie827]

ok, i do have to admit that the nissan gt-r is a beast of a car!

[T3hPwn3r3r]

Yeah, but nothing ridiculously big.

I like a good thick tire, especially on sedans like the Passat I'm looking to score.

Makes the damage of a wheel when going over rougher roads much less likely, and here in KY, it's easy to ruin a wheel by driving the speed limit in the city due to the debris, construction, etc.

Also, Nissan GTR is only a beast of a car because it's computer regulated out the ass. Still gets stomped from a roll by even mediocrely fast cars.

[1Kurgan1]

I would keep the wheels stock.

Rims are for people who think they're gangsta.

Same with minor lowering and tint.

I'm a white, red blooded, German-American!

I'm not talking 22's :p Keep it simple 18's at most for me, I'm really happy with the 17"s that came on my GTX stock, but like the old 15" or 16" on my SHO's thats when something needs rims, most new cars don't though unless they are really ugly. And last time I checked 18's weren't Gangsta :p

Minor lowering though, I am not talking about springs and done. I am far from a looks type of guy. By minor lowering I mean full suspension, struts, sway bars, end links, and anything else that ca be done. If you toss lowering springs on a car and leave the stock garbage struts and everything else there, thats posing as the stance is suppose to come with the cornering ability.

Tint, I just think looks good, I have never ever tinted any of my cars as I can't justify spending money on looking good until my car is fast, and really in my mind that would be over 500hp. But my GP came with minor tint and blacked out tails, I like how it looks.

[T3hPwn3r3r]

Yeah, lowering just doesn't look right to me. I'd like a modified suspension at normal height.

Also prevents scraping and the likes, to keep it at normal height.

[1Kurgan1]

I like a bit lower, not ground scraping. Once again my GP is at that right height, it can scrape if I am speeding in a few spots, but mostly it's great.

I like the look of concept cars, not everything about them. But when you see a concept of a car that is now in production you will see rims that fill the wells better and some tint. Just makes the car look more whole.

[FordGT90Concept]

Reduced profile means lower center of gravity which in turn means an ability to corner at high speeds. Low profiles are fine by me but if the owner, to achieve that lower profile, sacrificed the suspension system then I say no. A lot of those r!cers out there have their shocks soldered stiff which completely defeats the purpose.

[1Kurgan1]

You should have seen my sisters old Cavalier Z24. She picked it up for $400, it was rusty, had broken ground effects, some cheapo 15" rims, gauges on the inside that didn't work, chamelon painted interior (flaking horrible paint), and all the pedals and shifter knob were the bolt on kit for walmart.

One day my dad was looking at the gauges as my sister thought she had heard some sounds under the dash. He fires the car up looks under the dash and sees this nest of wires.... arcing! He turned off the car reached up and just tore them out as he figured they were just for the gauges.

Then move on to when it needed new tires. Pull a rim off and... the springs were actually clamped! I guess thats how you lower a car on a budget without taking anything apart, god that was a scary car.

Reduced profile means lower center of gravity which in turn means an ability to corner at high speeds. Low profiles are fine by me but if the owner, to achieve that lower profile, sacrificed the suspension system then I say no. A lot of those r!cers out there have their shocks soldered stiff which completely defeats the purpose.

And here's a perfect example of that, this also shows a better shot of having the bead inside the actual rim (just stupid). Looks like crotch rocket tires on the back with all that curse, I suppose to get a good contact patch running the bead that low and having the camber that crazy :rolleyes:

http://ll.speedhunters.com/u/f/eagames/NFS/speedhunters.com/Images/Mike%20Garrett/1JanFeatures/nym/three16.jpg

[T3hPwn3r3r]

Why would anyone change from straight camber? Doesn't more rubber meet the road when the bottom flat surface of the tire touches, providing better grip?

[FordGT90Concept]

And longer tire life. Riding on the wall of a tire = bad bad BAD.

[1Kurgan1]

Why would anyone change from straight camber? Doesn't more rubber meet the road when the bottom flat surface of the tire touches, providing better grip?

You want a slight camber for tracking, side walls are not stiff on tires. But that is way over done, it's very popular like I said on the VW scene, that just happens to be a Toyota.

But also like I said look at the curve on that tire, that has to be a bike tire, no car tire is going to have that much of an arc too it, look at the bottom to get a good idea, looks dead on like something that would be on a crotch rocket.

Sometime I will have to snap a pic of the tire I created driving on a bad wheel bearing till the tire literally touched my cars strut and was no longer drivable. It had low tread on the whole tire, but I had only driven with the bad bear for about 3,000 miles and the inside I swear has about a 1/2 less tread and was literally on wires :O, thats pretty much what these guys are doing to these tires, they really even brand new an't last too much more than 10 - 15,000 miles.

[yogurt_21]

I like amercan trucks/muscle, Italian speedsters, and british custom.

[pepsi71ocean]

Dodge Trucks=Cummins Turbo Diesel FTW!!!
Chrystler Cars
Ford Mustangs
Mazda Sporters
Aston Martin Euro sports cars.

[Deusxmachina]

German the best rounded. American muscle for thrust and sound, Italian for looks and everything else.

Anyone have opinions on the reliability of Italian cars? Sure seems like they break a lot, especially for the price. Reminds me of a Car and Driver article where they took a low-mileage F40 and a Diablo through Florida rush-hour traffic. A/C broke, gas cap broke, seat broke, their McClaren F1 would overheat all the time.... stuff that wouldn't fly on a $25k car gets a pass because they are "exotic."

That's the thing though. Most tuners, especially 4 cylinders, end up making you look like a tool.

If I tune it, I will be as discrete as possible. 4 cylinder+bigger exhaust=FART.

Turbo 4s usually don't have that fart sound. At least the ones I'm used to don't. Put 3" on and they can sound downright mean. As with most/all cars, choice of muffler can be very important. 2.5" with something like a Dynomax Super Turbo can sound nice while being surprisingly quiet.

[T3hPwn3r3r]

Don't know what turbo 4s you drive, but they still don't have the displacement to get anything but a high pitched wimpy sound.

TBH - if it sounds like a lawnmower - I don't want it.

Find me a 4 banger that sounds good with a large exhaust and I'll say it, but I really don't see the appeal in ricerockets.

[Wile E]

Don't know what turbo 4s you drive, but they still don't have the displacement to get anything but a high pitched wimpy sound.

TBH - if it sounds like a lawnmower - I don't want it.

Find me a 4 banger that sounds good with a large exhaust and I'll say it, but I really don't see the appeal in ricerockets.

Subaru EJ25 w/equal-length headers (WRX/STI), 1.8T with a Techtonics exhaust (VW/AUDIs), Nissan QR25 (Sentra spec-V, 4 cyl newer Altimas)

[Deusxmachina]

Don't know what turbo 4s you drive, but they still don't have the displacement to get anything but a high pitched wimpy sound.

TBH - if it sounds like a lawnmower - I don't want it.

Find me a 4 banger that sounds good with a large exhaust and I'll say it, but I really don't see the appeal in ricerockets.

Ricerockets? Speed is speed.

Really, pretty much any exhaust can sound at least decent with the right muffler or resonators.
Here's some quick ones:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gyugs0_UndA&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IQvysRAT9H4&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imt6B967GyA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0m4IjIOYArU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ru4PTLzHI_4
straight pipe: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mVHxQ6yHAhM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-VWI4fJ0lk&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TfJVqiX1GJo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iDLXP1_ODfA&feature=related


Those don't sound like V8s with Flowmasters, but then again neither do these:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T40ky_A9coU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbQq8tnQ5bQ&feature=related

[T3hPwn3r3r]

Speed is speed unless you're in a Civic, then it's just gay.

I'd be ashamed to drive any of those except maybe the 1st in the third group or the VW - but the huge pipe coming out of the back of an Asian car still screams "I like to make out with men!"

Actually, I'm pretty sure driving a Honda, Toyota, Eagle, or Mitsubishi in general and trying to make it "fast" in general does that :P I laugh everytime a Honda CRX or Eclipse comes up revving next to the VR6. It always ends with many lulz.

[Deusxmachina]

I'd be ashamed to drive any of those except maybe the 1st in the third group or the VW - but the huge pipe coming out of the back of an Asian car still screams "I like to make out with men!"

Actually, I'm pretty sure driving a Honda, Toyota, Eagle, or Mitsubishi in general and trying to make it "fast" in general does that :P I laugh everytime a Honda CRX or Eclipse comes up revving next to the VR6. It always ends with many lulz.

Huge pipe? They all have 3" exhaust. I think one has 3.5". At a certain power level, that's kind of required, whether you like to make out with men or not.

Trying to make an Eagle or Mitsubishi "fast"? You know those are one of the most bang-for-the-buck cars ever made, with arguably the greatest 4-cylinder engine ever made, right? No, perhaps not. Do Supras count in that Toyota category?

Nice to hear the VR6 always wins and beats up on all the WRXs and EVOs. I'm guessing it runs, what, 10s on street tires?

[Wile E]

Speed is speed unless you're in a Civic, then it's just gay.

I'd be ashamed to drive any of those except maybe the 1st in the third group or the VW - but the huge pipe coming out of the back of an Asian car still screams "I like to make out with men!"

Actually, I'm pretty sure driving a Honda, Toyota, Eagle, or Mitsubishi in general and trying to make it "fast" in general does that :P I laugh everytime a Honda CRX or Eclipse comes up revving next to the VR6. It always ends with many lulz.lol. Your ignorance as far as cars are concerned amuses me.

As far as the exhaust tips, even the Euro car drivers use the big tips. Short of going custom, it's pretty much the status quo for aftermarket exhausts on everything except muscle cars and exotics anymore. That's a silly argument. As far as the Subies in those clips, I can't stand that Harley-ish quality to the exhaust sound. Equal length headers get rid of that. That would be the first mod I did if I ever got a WRX or STI.

Now, on to power and racing. It only takes a B16 swap in a CRX to keep up with an early VR6. and a b18C swapped Civic is a match for early generations of VR6's, and a K20A2 or Z3 swapped into a 90's thru early 2000's civic is a match for the later Vr6's. Hondas have more, and cheaper aftermarket support to be made faster tho, so who loses out in the long run here?

As far as Mitsus, you just haven't come across any that have real power mods. Any 4G63T equipped Mitsu with all the standard bolt-ons will obliterate your car.

You also don't see a lot of 1000HP VR6's floating around, do you? There are quite a few 1000HP Evos floating around tho. Just ask Buschur Racing or AMS Performance.

700+ HP Hondas aren't uncommon either.

So who looks more gay, the guy driving the modified Civic, or the guy in the VW losing to the guy in the modded Civic?

[ChromeDome]

Euro for refinement and durability

Japanese for reliability / dependability and overall quality

American for...um...the occasional rental

[SK-1]

Speed is speed unless you're in a Civic, then it's just gay.

http://videos.streetfire.net/video/crx-vs-lambo_155553.htm

Looks like 2 gay lambo dudes then...

[Deusxmachina]

snip
lol. Your ignorance as far as cars are concerned amuses me.


I was trying to avoid the car threads around here for that reason.

After looking up exhaust clips, browsing around brought up a few other fun street car ones. (No V8 clips since that's not the subject at hand.) If that VR6 can bring the lulz on something like these, I'd like to know what it has done to it. These cars, you can breathe on them and gain 20hp.

I hope no one is offended by the sexual undertones of the big exhausts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imUjTniuEi0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1gcHYRuodI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRb0Pu-DI0E&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1En5AoIgkFE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1sJJipbNZ4Q&feature=PlayList&p=312CDFD5F0B87AA3&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=13

[yogurt_21]

http://videos.streetfire.net/video/crx-vs-lambo_155553.htm

Looks like 2 gay lambo dudes then...

uh huh no shots of speedometer and they were following a truck the whole time so I call epic fail. counting seconds between signs I guage the speeds from 60mph to 105 top. my ranger can keep up with that and it's a pos.

[SK-1]

uh huh no shots of speedometer and they were following a truck the whole time so I call epic fail. counting seconds between signs I guage the speeds from 60mph to 105 top. my ranger can keep up with that and it's a pos.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzP-etuL6Y8
Denial is not just a river in Egypt... It got raped. Where is this invisible truck at 1:00 min?

[T3hPwn3r3r]

lol. Your ignorance as far as cars are concerned amuses me.

As far as the exhaust tips, even the Euro car drivers use the big tips. Short of going custom, it's pretty much the status quo for aftermarket exhausts on everything except muscle cars and exotics anymore. That's a silly argument. As far as the Subies in those clips, I can't stand that Harley-ish quality to the exhaust sound. Equal length headers get rid of that. That would be the first mod I did if I ever got a WRX or STI.

Now, on to power and racing. It only takes a B16 swap in a CRX to keep up with an early VR6. and a b18C swapped Civic is a match for early generations of VR6's, and a K20A2 or Z3 swapped into a 90's thru early 2000's civic is a match for the later Vr6's. Hondas have more, and cheaper aftermarket support to be made faster tho, so who loses out in the long run here?

As far as Mitsus, you just haven't come across any that have real power mods. Any 4G63T equipped Mitsu with all the standard bolt-ons will obliterate your car.

You also don't see a lot of 1000HP VR6's floating around, do you? There are quite a few 1000HP Evos floating around tho. Just ask Buschur Racing or AMS Performance.

700+ HP Hondas aren't uncommon either.

So who looks more gay, the guy driving the modified Civic, or the guy in the VW losing to the guy in the modded Civic?

http://www.car-body-kit.co.uk/civic_rear_bumper.jpg

The guy driving the modified Civic.

If it were all about being the fastest I could easily just say "OH IT ONLY TAKES A TOP FUEL DRAGSTER TO BEAT A CIVIC"

Also, you have to understand 99% of Asian cars with "mods" are limited to teenagers with their chicken-wire bodykits and fartcannons like this.

[yogurt_21]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzP-etuL6Y8
Denial is not just a river in Egypt... It got raped. Where is this invisible truck at 1:00 min?

which is why you should come down to earth. I call staged.

I'm not saying it isn't possible to mod an 89 civic to beat an 01 lambo. I'm just stating the fact that it's not what happened there.

a true one would have included the honda's specs and mods as well as indicate the mph.

[1Kurgan1]

[QUOTE=Wile E;4892Now, on to power and racing. It only takes a B16 swap in a CRX to keep up with an early VR6. and a b18C swapped Civic is a match for early generations of VR6's, and a K20A2 or Z3 swapped into a 90's thru early 2000's civic is a match for the later Vr6's. Hondas have more, and cheaper aftermarket support to be made faster tho, so who loses out in the long run here? [/QUOTE]

There a difference there, thats a swapped motor. I've done motor swaps myself, but a lot of people haven't, and would get lost, especially when it comes to wiring. So it's just really hard to compare a swapped motor car to a car that you can pick up, bolt on some parts and get good results out of.

It's really hard for me to talk about Honda's as it seems to have none around here, the fastest one I ever ran across was a mid 90's hatch that had a B16, cam, worked head, full exhaust, maf, custom tune, CAI, at least as far as they explained it had every bolt on possible except air being forced in, it actually osunded wicked, they said they run it to 8500rpms. Also had full suspension and what looked to be 17's on, oh and the coolest thing was, it had rust on the fenderwells, I didn't expect it to be fast at all.

Sad part comes with, my trannys in my SHO was on the way out, I had to shift it with 2 hands they took a 3 car running start from behind me, I hit the gas when they were a car back, they made it up to my back bumper by the top of 2nd (we started at like 35mph) the shift took so long since I had to 2 hand it they made it up to my pass door, and then by mid 3rd they were once again back at the back bumper.

Cool guys, I actually would give that car credit, but at that time I had picked up my SHO for $700 and I wouldn't want to count they put into that car. I'm not saying their isn't fast Hondas out there, but it seems most are all gutted out and they almost all require swaps, except the newer ones.

[SK-1]

which is why you should come down to earth. I call staged.

I'm not saying it isn't possible to mod an 89 civic to beat an 01 lambo. I'm just stating the fact that it's not what happened there.

a true one would have included the honda's specs and mods as well as indicate the mph.

Your entire premise is absurd. Ok lets use your logic. Lets get 2 old guys, a 250K Lambo, 2 teenagers in a CRX and EMBARRASS OURSELVES.:rolleyes::rolleyes:


You need heavy shoes to "come back to Earth".

[1Kurgan1]

Your entire premise is absurd. Ok lets use your logic. Lets get 2 old guys, a 250K Lambo, 2 teenagers in a CRX and EMBARRASS OURSELVES.:rolleyes::rolleyes:


You need heavy shoes to "come back to Earth".

It's not about the people, a CRX beat a Lambo, not a big deal. Any decent drag day at a strip and you could find a handful of cars that would do the exact samething. It's obvious building a car is far cheaper than buying one, the Lambo is a status symbol, if I had the money it wouldn't be the first car on my list, I would much rather have a vette.

But just saying, you can't really compare the 2 and call the CRX awesome for beating a Lambo, it's cool, and I actually give whoever built that car some credit as it almost looks completely stock, heck looks like it has 15" rims on it. Speed before looks, when you put it in the other order, then it's being done wrong, unless the car is already wicked fast.

[SK-1]

It's not about the people, a CRX beat a Lambo, not a big deal.

Apparently it is to some of our members.;)

[T3hPwn3r3r]

It's not really a CRX if it has a non stock engine, non stock suspension, non stock everything other than the body.

Either way - it's still a Jap econobox.

Racing =/= going in a straight line.

Where I come from cars have this thing called a steering wheel - and racing involves both straights and this thing called curves - you know... those things where you have to use a steering wheel.

The Lamborghini would destroy it on a proper track (Nurburgring anyone? :D)

[SK-1]

Good grief^ Some ppl would argue with a brick wall....

[T3hPwn3r3r]

What? Because I don't see the merits of launching something in a straight line? The reason cars have tires, steering systems, suspensions, and things of that sort are to go over unstraight and uneven surfaces.

Hondas can't turn and that's final. Sorry if your brainwashed ricer mentality disagrees and you're a bit butthurt - but modded Hondas, Mitsus, etc. - they are not racecars - nor are they fast. The first time you throw them into a curve they will oversteer into a wall, tree, or ditch.

[SK-1]

Sorry if your brainwashed ricer mentality disagrees and you're a bit butthurt

:rolleyes: Name calling? :rolleyes: Grow up son.

[Deusxmachina]

What? Because I don't see the merits of launching something in a straight line? The reason cars have tires, steering systems, suspensions, and things of that sort are to go over unstraight and uneven surfaces.

Hondas can't turn and that's final. Sorry if your brainwashed ricer mentality disagrees and you're a bit butthurt - but modded Hondas, Mitsus, etc. - they are not racecars - nor are they fast. The first time you throw them into a curve they will oversteer into a wall, tree, or ditch.

A CRX is a good, some say great, car for autocross.

Did you just say a Mitsu can't go around a curve? Yep, looks like it.

A Mitsubishi EVO is built and bred for rally racing, where they are driven in all sorts of weather conditions, over 50-foot jumps, through water four-feet deep, and around curves on sides of mountains. I think it was Top Gear that said it's the most ridiculously-easy car to drive around curves and makes anyone sitting behind the wheel look like a hero.

I am now picturing a Lamborghini run a typical WRC race. That would be interesting.

[1Kurgan1]

I agree a Evo is a great handling car, anything with AWD setup mildly decent is though, as they are much easier to drive that a car prone to a bit of oversteer. But like you said Evo's were meant to rally, a Lambo isn't meant for that, could they make one with that, then tame it for road use like what has been done to the Evo, I'm sure.

[T3hPwn3r3r]

A CRX is a good, some say great, car for autocross.

Did you just say a Mitsu can't go around a curve? Yep, looks like it.

A Mitsubishi EVO is built and bred for rally racing, where they are driven in all sorts of weather conditions, over 50-foot jumps, through water four-feet deep, and around curves on sides of mountains. I think it was Top Gear that said it's the most ridiculously-easy car to drive around curves and makes anyone sitting behind the wheel look like a hero.

I am now picturing a Lamborghini run a typical WRC race. That would be interesting.
I'm not talking about Evos. I'm talking about the cars you see everyday that are "modded" to go "fast".

Front wheel drive Mitsus, Eagles, Hondas, Toyotas, etc.

FWD is a platform that offers little for the sporty driver - other than severe understeer and horrible launch capabilities.

Put a CRX up against a real (AKA RWD) autoX car such as an RX-8, MX-5, or Corvette and you'll have many lulz.

[T3hPwn3r3r]

:rolleyes: Name calling? :rolleyes: Grow up son.

Go back to munching the frozen vag of Sarah Palin.

[Deusxmachina]

I'm not talking about Evos. I'm talking about the cars you see everyday that are "modded" to go "fast".

Are things like V6 Mustangs included in the "modded" to go "fast" category?

How fast is that VR6 again, by the way?

[SK-1]

A
How fast is that VR6 again, by the way?

About as fast as his ability to swallow Obama's load.

[Wile E]

There a difference there, thats a swapped motor. I've done motor swaps myself, but a lot of people haven't, and would get lost, especially when it comes to wiring. So it's just really hard to compare a swapped motor car to a car that you can pick up, bolt on some parts and get good results out of.

It's really hard for me to talk about Honda's as it seems to have none around here, the fastest one I ever ran across was a mid 90's hatch that had a B16, cam, worked head, full exhaust, maf, custom tune, CAI, at least as far as they explained it had every bolt on possible except air being forced in, it actually osunded wicked, they said they run it to 8500rpms. Also had full suspension and what looked to be 17's on, oh and the coolest thing was, it had rust on the fenderwells, I didn't expect it to be fast at all.

Sad part comes with, my trannys in my SHO was on the way out, I had to shift it with 2 hands they took a 3 car running start from behind me, I hit the gas when they were a car back, they made it up to my back bumper by the top of 2nd (we started at like 35mph) the shift took so long since I had to 2 hand it they made it up to my pass door, and then by mid 3rd they were once again back at the back bumper.

Cool guys, I actually would give that car credit, but at that time I had picked up my SHO for $700 and I wouldn't want to count they put into that car. I'm not saying their isn't fast Hondas out there, but it seems most are all gutted out and they almost all require swaps, except the newer ones.
When we are talking mods, it's perfectly fair to mention motor swaps, especially in reference to Hondas, which can be done with all factory available parts in many swaps. Not to mention, the cost of the Civic plus the swap is still likely cheaper than a good VR6 powered car. Nobody here was talking what an average person would do. Average people don't make their cars faster to begin with. We are talking about enthusiasts, and as such, swaps are perfectly normal, not to mention, pretty cheap in Hondas and select Nissans.

What? Because I don't see the merits of launching something in a straight line? The reason cars have tires, steering systems, suspensions, and things of that sort are to go over unstraight and uneven surfaces.

Hondas can't turn and that's final. Sorry if your brainwashed ricer mentality disagrees and you're a bit butthurt - but modded Hondas, Mitsus, etc. - they are not racecars - nor are they fast. The first time you throw them into a curve they will oversteer into a wall, tree, or ditch.
Ummm, except that your precious VR6 has the same limitations as the Hondas and Mitsus. So how is it any better?

And if you think Hondas can't turn, go to a ProSolo autocross event, and see how the VWs stack up against the Hondas. I'll will tell you this, the VW's are allowed more mods when in the same class as the Hondas for a reason. To even up the matchup. ;)

And to prove how little you know about cars, fwd does not have a tendency to oversteer. It's natural tendency is understeer. ANd besides, any car can be made to handle well. Some platforms are better for it than others, but you vr6 doesn't fall into that category, which is where this argument started, not with proper awd or rwd cars. You just threw that in at the last second, due to the fact that you are wrong about the Hondas, mitsus and nissans.

To to make you feel even worse, I can pick up a 240SX, which is a proper platform, for about the same price as all the other cars mentioned here, but still less than a good vr6 car. What do you have to say about that?

I'm not talking about Evos. I'm talking about the cars you see everyday that are "modded" to go "fast".

Front wheel drive Mitsus, Eagles, Hondas, Toyotas, etc.

FWD is a platform that offers little for the sporty driver - other than severe understeer and horrible launch capabilities.

Put a CRX up against a real (AKA RWD) autoX car such as an RX-8, MX-5, or Corvette and you'll have many lulz.But it will still beat the VR6 car. ;)

And again, fwd was not a stipulation that you made originally.

All this started because you claimed that your vr6 car was better than a Honda, Mitsu, Nissan, and I just pointed out to you that you haven't found a real Honda, Mitsu or Nissan, or else you would've lost. You claim that all Jap owners are rice boys, yet most of the Euro trash I see around uses the same ugly body kits and fart cans. How are they any better than rice?

The answer is: You are simply a fanboy, and have no rational argument against Jap cars, nor know enough about cars to make a truly informed argument or case for your beliefs.

[WhiteLotus]

Sorry but i don't want to read the past 92 posts. What are we debating?

[T3hPwn3r3r]

Are things like V6 Mustangs included in the "modded" to go "fast" category?

How fast is that VR6 again, by the way?

Yes.

Find me a "modded" V6 Mustang on the street that isn't a rustbucket Fox and can actually pull against even a regular GT.

[T3hPwn3r3r]

About as fast as his ability to swallow Obama's load.

I didn't vote for him nor do I like him. I guess they don't teach you guys to read wherever the hell you're from.

[T3hPwn3r3r]

When we are talking mods, it's perfectly fair to mention motor swaps, especially in reference to Hondas, which can be done with all factory available parts in many swaps. Not to mention, the cost of the Civic plus the swap is still likely cheaper than a good VR6 powered car. Nobody here was talking what an average person would do. Average people don't make their cars faster to begin with. We are talking about enthusiasts, and as such, swaps are perfectly normal, not to mention, pretty cheap in Hondas and select Nissans.


Ummm, except that your precious VR6 has the same limitations as the Hondas and Mitsus. So how is it any better?

And if you think Hondas can't turn, go to a ProSolo autocross event, and see how the VWs stack up against the Hondas. I'll will tell you this, the VW's are allowed more mods when in the same class as the Hondas for a reason. To even up the matchup. ;)

And to prove how little you know about cars, fwd does not have a tendency to oversteer. It's natural tendency is understeer. ANd besides, any car can be made to handle well. Some platforms are better for it than others, but you vr6 doesn't fall into that category, which is where this argument started, not with proper awd or rwd cars. You just threw that in at the last second, due to the fact that you are wrong about the Hondas, mitsus and nissans.

To to make you feel even worse, I can pick up a 240SX, which is a proper platform, for about the same price as all the other cars mentioned here, but still less than a good vr6 car. What do you have to say about that?

But it will still beat the VR6 car. ;)

And again, fwd was not a stipulation that you made originally.

All this started because you claimed that your vr6 car was better than a Honda, Mitsu, Nissan, and I just pointed out to you that you haven't found a real Honda, Mitsu or Nissan, or else you would've lost. You claim that all Jap owners are rice boys, yet most of the Euro trash I see around uses the same ugly body kits and fart cans. How are they any better than rice?

The answer is: You are simply a fanboy, and have no rational argument against Jap cars, nor know enough about cars to make a truly informed argument or case for your beliefs.

No, Wile-E, we're simply discussing two different things. You're talking about enthusiasts. I am not. I have never once in my life seen an "enthusiast" on the street or at the track (except the drag strip, which isn't really racing anyway) in a Honda that had a swap.

Perhaps it's different there, but I challenge any of you, as I said, to come here and find a "fast" modded car. Bonus points if it's not a Camaro or Firebird.

The initial argument was that Hondas were OMFGAWESOME for driving in straight lines. My argument was - not when every "modded" Honda is just 110hp with 300 pounds in extra plastic tacked on and ebay parts.

I simply said that the VW was a much better car than a Honda or Mitsu for that. I will add that it is not representative of local European motorsports - that is mainly dominated by 968s, 911s, Audi S4s, etc.

But then I went on to make the argument that your engine swapped Honda doesn't matter, because it'll never last on a real track (DRAG STRIP LOL) (Cones in a parking lot lol) against real cars anyway.

In the end, you're still driving a Honda... one that looks like this at that:
http://www.kris.1000lecie.pl/civicpics/tricked%20out%20honda%20civic%20(1).jpg
I bet those stickers add 20hp each.

[Deusxmachina]

Find me a "modded" V6 Mustang on the street that isn't a rustbucket Fox and can actually pull against even a regular GT.

I don't understand. All Toyotas, Mitsus, Hondas, etc, were supposedly included here until the EVO was specifically mentioned, and I assume something like the Supra and S2000 would get a pass as well.

But now we know things like RWD V6 Mustangs would be included. So even if a company has a "fast" version of the car available, (EVO, Mustang GT, etc), those apparently weren't the ones being talked about. It's the econo versions being talked about.

So it looks like while saying all Hondas, Mitsus, Toyotas, etc, suck, you actually should have said the riced-out, slow, econobox versions of their cars suck. And we now know this category would include cars such as a RWD V6 Mustang.

My question now is: how does a VR6 fit in here? Have you been talking about one of those 15-second, 0-60 in 7 seconds, FWD VR6s? What specific VR6 you're driving is putting the lulz on all those other econo versions of cars?



The initial argument was that Hondas were OMFGAWESOME for driving in straight lines. My argument was - not when every "modded" Honda is just 110hp with 300 pounds in extra plastic tacked on and ebay parts.


Is that what the initial argument was? That all Hondas are OMFGAWESOME in a straight line? I thought it started with ONE modified CRX going fast in a straight line.

I thought it started back with things like: "...but the huge pipe coming out of the back of an Asian car still screams "I like to make out with men! Actually, I'm pretty sure driving a Honda, Toyota, Eagle, or Mitsubishi in general and trying to make it "fast" in general does that :P"

Fast 4-cylinder cars require a 3" or even bigger exhaust. Notice I didn't use quotes around "fast" there, because some are actually fast.

Have you looked at the engines in some of the econoboxes the past few years, btw? Honda, Toyota, HYUNDAI are stuffing 265-ish hp stock into them. That's not race car speed, but it's not exactly slow.

[1Kurgan1]

When we are talking mods, it's perfectly fair to mention motor swaps, especially in reference to Hondas, which can be done with all factory available parts in many swaps. Not to mention, the cost of the Civic plus the swap is still likely cheaper than a good VR6 powered car. Nobody here was talking what an average person would do. Average people don't make their cars faster to begin with. We are talking about enthusiasts, and as such, swaps are perfectly normal, not to mention, pretty cheap in Hondas and select Nissans.

By average people I meant your average person who puts parts on their cars to go fast. And I could name a handful of people I know that do this, but could never pull a motor out a car and put one back in, and that would be a stock to stock replacement, not a stock to motor from another car replacement. Bolt on parts are easy, many people will put on an intake, pay a shop to put on exhaust, pay someone to give it a tune, toss in a new MAF, but most of them aren't going to dig any deeper than that, like putting on a pair of headers, replacing struts, tearing apart the transmission, or even pulling it out of the car. And even most of those things I listed would have been performed by others.

But as far as cheap would go, I still got to disagree, the motor maybe, but Honda prices are eye gouging, around here sweet 91 Accords with 170k are average 2 - 3k, Civics from mid 90's with a few things done to them are about what I payed for my car. Honda was bang for the buck before FF hit, but after that it brought the wrong crowd, and those enthusiasts easily fall under the, never picked a wrench up in my life category, that dream of motor swaps (but don't have the money to pay someone to do it).

And you can't really compare a new car vs a used car, the used car will always be easier on the wallet.

[Wile E]

By average people I meant your average person who puts parts on their cars to go fast. And I could name a handful of people I know that do this, but could never pull a motor out a car and put one back in, and that would be a stock to stock replacement, not a stock to motor from another car replacement. Bolt on parts are easy, many people will put on an intake, pay a shop to put on exhaust, pay someone to give it a tune, toss in a new MAF, but most of them aren't going to dig any deeper than that, like putting on a pair of headers, replacing struts, tearing apart the transmission, or even pulling it out of the car. And even most of those things I listed would have been performed by others.

But as far as cheap would go, I still got to disagree, the motor maybe, but Honda prices are eye gouging, around here sweet 91 Accords with 170k are average 2 - 3k, Civics from mid 90's with a few things done to them are about what I payed for my car. Honda was bang for the buck before FF hit, but after that it brought the wrong crowd, and those enthusiasts easily fall under the, never picked a wrench up in my life category, that dream of motor swaps (but don't have the money to pay someone to do it).

And you can't really compare a new car vs a used car, the used car will always be easier on the wallet.
Swaps in Hondas aren't uncommon at all. All of the enthusiasts I know that have a Honda, and are actually concerned about speed, already have a B16 or B18 swap, or are well on their way to getting one. It's dirt cheap for the B16. Slightly less so for the B18, but still under the cost of a VR6 powered VW. And we weren't talking new vs old, we were talking Hondas, Misus and Toyotas vs his VR6 VW. Which do you think is cheaper? VW's are gouged a hell of a lot more than Hondas.

[Wile E]

No, Wile-E, we're simply discussing two different things. You're talking about enthusiasts. I am not. I have never once in my life seen an "enthusiast" on the street or at the track (except the drag strip, which isn't really racing anyway) in a Honda that had a swap.

Perhaps it's different there, but I challenge any of you, as I said, to come here and find a "fast" modded car. Bonus points if it's not a Camaro or Firebird.

The initial argument was that Hondas were OMFGAWESOME for driving in straight lines. My argument was - not when every "modded" Honda is just 110hp with 300 pounds in extra plastic tacked on and ebay parts.

I simply said that the VW was a much better car than a Honda or Mitsu for that. I will add that it is not representative of local European motorsports - that is mainly dominated by 968s, 911s, Audi S4s, etc.

But then I went on to make the argument that your engine swapped Honda doesn't matter, because it'll never last on a real track (DRAG STRIP LOL) (Cones in a parking lot lol) against real cars anyway.

In the end, you're still driving a Honda... one that looks like this at that:
http://www.kris.1000lecie.pl/civicpics/tricked%20out%20honda%20civic%20(1).jpg
I bet those stickers add 20hp each.No your argument started that your vr6 is better than Hondas, mitsus, and Toyotas.

As far as finding a properly built Honda in your area, come to mine and try to find a properly built Euro car. They're all riced out as well.

And again, you are sadly mistaken, all these swapped Hondas can compete and easily survive on the real race tracks as well as autocross and drag strip. They will hold up just as well, if not better, than your precious vr6. Most racing organizations use a class system to try to keep racing even. The fwd cars don't race against the rwd and awd cars, so the point you were trying to make is completely moot, anyway. The Hondas will be competing against other fwd platforms, such as the fwd VR6 and 1.8T cars, in which case they compete very well.

Then, after dismissing the higher level Jap cars, you try to bring up higher level Euro cars (968's, 911s, S4s), and all I have to bring up to answer back is the Nissan 240sx, 300ZX, 350Z, and Skyline GTR. The Toyota Supra. The Mitsu Eclipse, 3000GT, or Evo. The Subaru Impreza platform. Mazda RX7, RX8 and Miata. And I'm sure I'm still missing a few.

Again, your fanboyism shines thru. When the argument doesn't go your way, you try to change the scope of the argument, yet every argument you bring up, still has an answer to it.

Your euro cars are not any better than jap cars, get it thru your head.

[1Kurgan1]

Swaps in Hondas aren't uncommon at all. All of the enthusiasts I know that have a Honda, and are actually concerned about speed, already have a B16 or B18 swap, or are well on their way to getting one. It's dirt cheap for the B16. Slightly less so for the B18, but still under the cost of a VR6 powered VW. And we weren't talking new vs old, we were talking Hondas, Misus and Toyotas vs his VR6 VW. Which do you think is cheaper? VW's are gouged a hell of a lot more than Hondas.

I'm not saying they are rare, but just that there are a ton of car nuts that don't have the skill to swap a motor and would pay someone else to do it. I'm still not a fan of B16 swaps though, like I said that full bolt on one was slower than my fubared tranny SHO. Even B18's, had a friend with a 96 GSR I/H/E and that SHO had no issues destroying that, from a stop it was a decent run, from a roll it was harsh.

But as far as VR6 vs Honda, it's up in the air. The Honda after market is huge, but VR6 won't need a swap, but then again VR6 isn't the best you could get imo. Looking for a 1.8t car if you looking at VW's is the way to go, real cheap speed when you already have FI on something. So really goes back and forth and depends on budget, if the sky is the limit anything is possible with any car, but it's when you start putting price constraints down (since car parts are a lot more than comp parts) that it starts to get hard.

But I do agree about riced out VW's, it isn't just a japanese car thing, anything with a 4 popper and it seems people feel the need to strap a park bench to the trunk, a massive fart cannon, and some stickers. I just don't see VW's as a german car, now we start looking at their Audi siblings and I might, even then still hard for me to think of an A4 like that as they use the exact same body.

[yogurt_21]

Your entire premise is absurd. Ok lets use your logic. Lets get 2 old guys, a 250K Lambo, 2 teenagers in a CRX and EMBARRASS OURSELVES.:rolleyes::rolleyes:


You need heavy shoes to "come back to Earth".

actually it's yours which is flawed, the old guys took the video, if they we're staging it do you really think they would be postign it on the net? seriously. no they would burn the tape and all evidence that it ever happened.

stop idolizing a fake vid and find a real one.

[FordGT90Concept]

Lamborghinis really aren't that fast. They're faster than your average car, yeah, but among the super cars they're snails. Their advantage is in handling, not straight line performance.

[erocker]

I buy as locally as I can to support the people around me.

[Wile E]

I'm not saying they are rare, but just that there are a ton of car nuts that don't have the skill to swap a motor and would pay someone else to do it. I'm still not a fan of B16 swaps though, like I said that full bolt on one was slower than my fubared tranny SHO. Even B18's, had a friend with a 96 GSR I/H/E and that SHO had no issues destroying that, from a stop it was a decent run, from a roll it was harsh.

But as far as VR6 vs Honda, it's up in the air. The Honda after market is huge, but VR6 won't need a swap, but then again VR6 isn't the best you could get imo. Looking for a 1.8t car if you looking at VW's is the way to go, real cheap speed when you already have FI on something. So really goes back and forth and depends on budget, if the sky is the limit anything is possible with any car, but it's when you start putting price constraints down (since car parts are a lot more than comp parts) that it starts to get hard.

But I do agree about riced out VW's, it isn't just a japanese car thing, anything with a 4 popper and it seems people feel the need to strap a park bench to the trunk, a massive fart cannon, and some stickers. I just don't see VW's as a german car, now we start looking at their Audi siblings and I might, even then still hard for me to think of an A4 like that as they use the exact same body.
I agree, it comes down to price constraints, and the Jap cars have a heavy advantage in that over 90% of the Euro cars. So him saying that they are crap is just a fanboy statement. He came in claiming that all "tuned" jap cars are crap, yet the Euro cars that are "tuned", generally have the same ugly shit on them as the jap cars.

Then he went on to mention how his vr6 is faster than these tuned Hondas, Toyotas, mitsus and Nissans, and I went on to show him that for the same price as his stock vr6, I can easily build a honda or select nissan or toyota that would embarrass his car, in any contest of speed. And I don't have to have it all riced out to do it. And it will eventually need that huge exhaust, because turbos like big exhausts. Not all tuned Hondas are rice boys.

I like Euro cars and all, but they are just overpriced for what you get, especially when it comes to reliability or aftermarket support. I still, to this day, want an E36 M3 tho. lol.

[T3hPwn3r3r]

Fine, since we argue semantics instead of the obvious implied meaning, I'll leave it at this.

Even if your Honda does a 7 second quarter mile, you're still driving a 20,000$ compact car.

Also, arguing about cars that have been swapped is entirely ridiculous, as you can drop an LS series engine into anything and make it fast, pretty much.

One thing I would like to argue - putting 20 grand into a car to make it "fast" is kind of dumb, as for the same cost it takes to get a Honda into the 5 second 0-60s combined with the car (high resale, high used prices), you could buy a new Cobalt SS, Mazdaspeed3, or a LIGHTLY used GT, 'Vette, even LOTUS (Elises can be had for ~20k used in great condition) for that price.

Point being, you can either be THAT guy:
http://www.motorcities.com/media/image/640/00GAE090202882I/1999-Honda-Civic-Si-blue-I-640.jpeg

Or THAT guy:
http://www.seriouswheels.com/pics-jkl/Lotus-Elise-Type-25.jpg

[T3hPwn3r3r]

I agree, it comes down to price constraints, and the Jap cars have a heavy advantage in that over 90% of the Euro cars. So him saying that they are crap is just a fanboy statement. He came in claiming that all "tuned" jap cars are crap, yet the Euro cars that are "tuned", generally have the same ugly shit on them as the jap cars.

Then he went on to mention how his vr6 is faster than these tuned Hondas, Toyotas, mitsus and Nissans, and I went on to show him that for the same price as his stock vr6, I can easily build a honda or select nissan or toyota that would embarrass his car, in any contest of speed. And I don't have to have it all riced out to do it. And it will eventually need that huge exhaust, because turbos like big exhausts. Not all tuned Hondas are rice boys.

I like Euro cars and all, but they are just overpriced for what you get, especially when it comes to reliability or aftermarket support. I still, to this day, want an E36 M3 tho. lol.

Stock VR6 5 speed, 86k miles+new tires, 0-60 in under 7, total cost, 2900$.

My simple reason for this argument though - is aside from drag racing (HURP DURP I CAN GO IN A STRAIGHT LINE WHEWT) I've yet to see a swapped Honda, or a fast Honda in general. I've seen one fast Talon, with 20 grand poured into it, but I guarantee it could be matched with 20 grand in any car (even my little A to B Cavalier could do good with 20 grand)

I do agree with Kurgan on the 1.8T thing though.

With the base APR ECU tune running mid-premium fuel you can hit the mid 200s horsepower wise for less than 500$, and the aftermarket is excellent.

[Deusxmachina]

Fine, since we argue semantics instead of the obvious implied meaning, I'll leave it at this.

Even if your Honda does a 7 second quarter mile, you're still driving a 20,000$ compact car.

Also, arguing about cars that have been swapped is entirely ridiculous, as you can drop an LS series engine into anything and make it fast, pretty much.

One thing I would like to argue - putting 20 grand into a car to make it "fast" is kind of dumb, as for the same cost it takes to get a Honda into the 5 second 0-60s combined with the car (high resale, high used prices), you could buy a new Cobalt SS, Mazdaspeed3, or a LIGHTLY used GT, 'Vette, even LOTUS (Elises can be had for ~20k used in great condition) for that price.


What semantics? You basically said all Japanese cars are slow and can't go around a curve. If you were completely ignoring the upper models and only meant the bottom models of those manufacturers are slow and can't go around a curve, that's what you should have said from the start. I bet if Lamborghini made a $20k econo car, it probably wouldn't be that fast or go around curves too well, either.

As for putting 20k into a low-rung car to make it "fast," that is true, not everyone wants to drive a $5k car with 20k in mods done to it, but 20k in mods almost assuredly gets you FAST, not "fast." Maybe it's just me, but if someone spends 20k just to keep up with a stock Cobalt, I'd probably think they're doing it wrong.

All of this is at least somewhat amusing since the car of the day is a VR6 that does 0-60 in a ludicrous-speed under 7 seconds. Someone grab a video camera and a Lambo, (which is the car that started this).


I do agree with Kurgan on the 1.8T thing though.

With the base APR ECU tune running mid-premium fuel you can hit the mid 200s horsepower wise for less than 500$, and the aftermarket is excellent.

Awesome. That's almost as much horsepower as a current stock Honda or Hyundai family sedan.

[T3hPwn3r3r]

What semantics? You basically said all Japanese cars are slow and can't go around a curve. If you were completely ignoring the upper models and only meant the bottom models of those manufacturers are slow and can't go around a curve, that's what you should have said from the start. I bet if Lamborghini made a $20k econo car, it probably wouldn't be that fast or go around curves too well, either.

As for putting 20k into a low-rung car to make it "fast," that is true, not everyone wants to drive a $5k car with 20k in mods done to it, but 20k in mods almost assuredly gets you FAST, not "fast." Maybe it's just me, but if someone spends 20k just to keep up with a stock Cobalt, I'd probably think they're doing it wrong.

All of this is at least somewhat amusing since the car of the day is a VR6 that does 0-60 in a ludicrous-speed under 7 seconds. Someone grab a video camera and a Lambo, (which is the car that started this).



Awesome. That's almost as much horsepower as a current stock Honda or Hyundai family sedan.
Yes, yes, but go drive a Honda Accord around a curve against a Euro-spec MKIV Golf with the APR tune (which can be had for MUCH cheaper since we're talking value here)

I never said the car of the day was a VR6, I only said it spanked ricefags, and spanked them hard, because their Civics just don't handle it.

However if you want to talk upper end models, I know several Corvettes, Porsches, and biturbo V12 Benzs that would like to discuss things with your Evo/STi.

Keep in mind Asian cars don't hold much for records.

Benz, last I checked had the fastest 4 door saloon, a Dodge held a drift title, and a French car just won Le Mans.

[JC316]

You want to talk value/performance/curves. $10,000 budget, here is what I would do.

96 Mustang GT. I paid $1500 for it. 215HP stock.

PI Headswap = $700 = 270ish HP at the crank. Little more than a 99-04 because of a higher compression ratio.
Vortech V2SQ kit = $5000
Stage 2 Blower cams with beehive springs =$1500
ARP Main studs and rod bolts + Main/Rod Bearings = $400
Tune = $400
Ebaich lowering springs = $239

You are looking at $9740

That's under $10000 and you have easily 400-450HP car that handles GREAT and will smoke practically anything in the same price range. That is with retail pricing. With finding deals, you could easily drop that down to around 7K. Get a 5.0 stang and you can do it even cheaper.

Here is a video with a comparable stang to what I just mentioned. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tCebg-psTpk

This is where an American car has the import beat. There may be faster imports, but I doubt you could find one that fast for that cheap.

[Deusxmachina]

However if you want to talk upper end models, I know several Corvettes, Porsches, and biturbo V12 Benzs that would like to discuss things with your Evo/STi.

Keep in mind Asian cars don't hold much for records.

Benz, last I checked had the fastest 4 door saloon, a Dodge held a drift title, and a French car just won Le Mans.

If I wanted to talk upper-end models, Corvettes would be on my side of the discussion since the thread is "American or European" and has turned more into "everything else or European."

I'm not a big record guy since most of them are about big-$ teams with top drivers and have little relevance to people in the real world. I mean, records like the stock-internal Supra horsepower record are interesting since anyone with some shade and a tree can see what is possible, but if Ferrari wins Formula One or a Viper wins at LeMans or whatever, I don't really care.


This is where an American car has the import beat. There may be faster imports, but I doubt you could find one that fast for that cheap.

We may need a whole separate benchracing thread. Boy, I hope not.

That Mustang is doing 450hp on the stock clutch and using the stock fuel pump and stock exhaust and all that? Impressive.

Let's see cuz I'm bored...

'92 AWD Talon/Eclipse
$1k stage eleventeen turbo
$500 cams
$500 front-mount and pipes
$100 fuel pump
$150 fp regulator
$500 clutch
$100 K&N and intake pipe
$500 exhaust
$300 biggie injectors
$20 boost controller
$250 tuning stuff
$200 2g or other manifold
$500 springs and struts and enough for a sway bar, too

$4620 + your $1500 for the car = $6120 and you have AWD to race in the snow and rain if you want.

It's late, and if I missed a thing or two or you want to bump the price of the car up to make it a '96 or whatever, you've got $3620 left to spend. Should be good for around 450-500bhp, 400+whp, and 11s on street tires, 0-60 in the 3s. Add more boost and/or really big turbo and stuff for more hp. Add on upgraded internals for extra reliability if you want. Only have to buy parts for four cylinders instead of eight, too. Neato.

Then again, that probably doesn't count as an import since that car was built in Illinois and is probably more American than a Canadian-made Camaro. :p

If we want to be dumb, we could just say get an old $500 Mustang and drop a built 460 into it, or get an old Camaro, do a 383 and a giant shot of nitrous, etc.

Benchracing can sometimes be fun, but I hope no one takes it too seriously. There's plenty of nice cars out there with potential.

[1Kurgan1]

Meh, guy on SHOforum took a stock 91 SHO, put in a fuel pump, a SC, tuned it and dropped down I believe 445whp.

You can do a lot of things for cheap with any type of car, but matters what you skip, any of these cars mentioned are going to corner and stop like crap. I mean even with the Talon, is the clutch goign to handle that, I have a feeling a few decent launches and it would blow the drive train to dust (AWD is great to launch, but if you have too much power to launch it like you stole it then there is no use).

Here's a good example too, even crate engines are dirt cheap, I'm too lazy to look through more parts as if you had the block you could build something cheaper, but this should be a no brains drop in a 3rd gen camaro with a blown motor (prob not even $1000 for the car)

http://www.jegs.com/p/Blueprint-Engines/Blueprint-Engines-SB-Chevy-Circle-Track-355ci-474HP-450TQ/761097/10002/-1

Then you can go blow the tranny and rear end right out, lol.

[Deusxmachina]

One good one is a guy who was at the track with an LT1 Vette doing 11s at around 120. Lingenfelter was there with one of his current creations of the time, had gone through the block and added $10+k of stuff to it, etc, and it was slower than the other guy. "What do you have done to it?" Basically was exhaust and a 200+ shot of nitrous. How long did that engine last? Who knows....

Then there was the "Nosxima" Nissan Maxima rental car. Automatic. A 125 shot, and a vise grips on the fuel return line to bump up the pressure. With some neutral-drop launches, it did 13s and beat up on plenty of "sports cars" that day. It was supposed to be a Cadillac "NosStar," but the rental place screwed up the reservation.

(cue Seinfeld)
"That's why you have the reservation. To hold the car here."
"Sir, I know what a reservation is."
"I don't think you do. If you did, the car would be here."

[JC316]

That Mustang is doing 450hp on the stock clutch and using the stock fuel pump and stock exhaust and all that? Impressive.

Let's see cuz I'm bored...

'92 AWD Talon/Eclipse
$1k stage eleventeen turbo
$500 cams
$500 front-mount and pipes
$100 fuel pump
$150 fp regulator
$500 clutch
$100 K&N and intake pipe
$500 exhaust
$300 biggie injectors
$20 boost controller
$250 tuning stuff
$200 2g or other manifold
$500 springs and struts and enough for a sway bar, too

$4620 + your $1500 for the car = $6120 and you have AWD to race in the snow and rain if you want.

It's late, and if I missed a thing or two or you want to bump the price of the car up to make it a '96 or whatever, you've got $3620 left to spend. Should be good for around 450-500bhp, 400+whp, and 11s on street tires, 0-60 in the 3s. Add more boost and/or really big turbo and stuff for more hp. Add on upgraded internals for extra reliability if you want. Only have to buy parts for four cylinders instead of eight, too. Neato.

Then again, that probably doesn't count as an import since that car was built in Illinois and is probably more American than a Canadian-made Camaro. :p

If we want to be dumb, we could just say get an old $500 Mustang and drop a built 460 into it, or get an old Camaro, do a 383 and a giant shot of nitrous, etc.

Benchracing can sometimes be fun, but I hope no one takes it too seriously. There's plenty of nice cars out there with potential.

Mine has a king cobra clutch in it as well as aftermarket exhaust and 3.55 gears. The Vortech kit comes with high flow fuel pump and injectors.

You try running 450HP on a stock Talon bottom end and see how far you get $100 says you throw a rod before 5,000 miles. Plus I don't think you are going to add 250HP with just a cam and upgraded turbo and exhaust. You might be able to get it to 350HP at the crank, but I doubt you would reach 450HP.

[1Kurgan1]

One good one is a guy who was at the track with an LT1 Vette doing 11s at around 120. Lingenfelter was there with one of his current creations of the time, had gone through the block and added $10+k of stuff to it, etc, and it was slower than the other guy. "What do you have done to it?" Basically was exhaust and a 200+ shot of nitrous. How long did that engine last? Who knows....

Then there was the "Nosxima" Nissan Maxima rental car. Automatic. A 125 shot, and a vise grips on the fuel return line to bump up the pressure. With some neutral-drop launches, it did 13s and beat up on plenty of "sports cars" that day. It was supposed to be a Cadillac "NosStar," but the rental place screwed up the reservation.

(cue Seinfeld)
"That's why you have the reservation. To hold the car here."
"Sir, I know what a reservation is."
"I don't think you do. If you did, the car would be here."

Anything is possible for NOS, just matters for how long. I seen a video on streetfire of a old base civic that put down I think like 75whp, they then tossed on I believe a 250 shot and hit the dyno again. It lived and put down 225whp..... :eek: That think would have tore someone up on the street. So what do they do, hit it again... BOOM didn't make the second run, was interesting to see since they had the hood open.

Odds on the LT1 taking that many 200 shots are pretty low, those motors bottom end just can't take a ton, I'm guessing he built a stout rotating assembly sometime down the line.

[Deusxmachina]

You try running 450HP on a stock Talon bottom end and see how far you get $100 says you throw a rod before 5,000 miles. Plus I don't think you are going to add 250HP with just a cam and upgraded turbo and exhaust. You might be able to get it to 350HP at the crank, but I doubt you would reach 450HP.

Why do you doubt it? Do you even know why, or do you just doubt it. It's too bad other cars bring down people's expectations.

This is pretty standard stuff. I don't know what else you think it needs.

[JC316]

Why do you doubt it? Do you even know why, or do you just doubt it. It's too bad other cars bring down people's expectations.

This is pretty standard stuff. I don't know what else you think it needs.

The stock motor makes 190HP with a stock turbo charger and intercooler.

In order to be making 450HP at the crank, you would have to be running MASSIVE amounts of boost. You couple that with stock valve springs, stock bearings, stock internals and stock gaskets and you have a ticking time bomb.

With forged internals, you could be making 450.

Not saying that it's not possible, but it would take more than just bolting a cam and a turbo on the car.

[3991v]

Point being, you can either be THAT guy:
http://www.motorcities.com/media/image/640/00GAE090202882I/1999-Honda-Civic-Si-blue-I-640.jpeg

Or THAT guy:
http://www.seriouswheels.com/pics-jkl/Lotus-Elise-Type-25.jpg
I would choose to be the first guy, I hate how Lotus cars look..

(I don't race, so speed and handling really don't matter to me as much as looks)

[Deusxmachina]

In order to be making 450HP at the crank, you would have to be running MASSIVE amounts of boost. You couple that with stock valve springs, stock bearings, stock internals and stock gaskets and you have a ticking time bomb.

Well, people have been doing that for the past 15 or so years, so it's not like this is anything new. Of course, built motors become more commonplace as time goes on if for no other reason than the aftermarket is big enough now and the prices are right where if you're doing even a standard, high-mileage rebuild you "may as well" put even better stuff in.

MASSIVE amounts of boost? Define "MASSIVE." :D If it takes "massive" amounts of boost to do 450bhp, I wonder what the adjective for the boost is for the guys who are actually fast. :p

[Wile E]

Stock VR6 5 speed, 86k miles+new tires, 0-60 in under 7, total cost, 2900$.

My simple reason for this argument though - is aside from drag racing (HURP DURP I CAN GO IN A STRAIGHT LINE WHEWT) I've yet to see a swapped Honda, or a fast Honda in general. I've seen one fast Talon, with 20 grand poured into it, but I guarantee it could be matched with 20 grand in any car (even my little A to B Cavalier could do good with 20 grand)

I do agree with Kurgan on the 1.8T thing though.

With the base APR ECU tune running mid-premium fuel you can hit the mid 200s horsepower wise for less than 500$, and the aftermarket is excellent.

A cheap car that has $20k dumped into it, can generally outperform cars 3x (or better) it's total investment. If that guy dumped 20k into a Talon, and he wasn't dumping all over z06's, he was doing it wrong. Less so in the corners, but close enough to keep ahead with straights taken into account.

And apparently, you have not been looking for a proper Honda, or they just largely ignore your VR6, because they are very common in my area, and I'm in an area that frowns upon imports in general. (An area that was founded on steel mills. As USA-centric as it gets)

As far as the cost of your car, you just got a really good deal, as VR6 never go for low prices in good shape, and I'm quite sure you know that. But others an get great deals as well, and to drive my point home, my 97 Civic cost me $900 w/160k. It wasn't running, and they didn't want to fix it. It needed a distributor cap. lol. For $2k, I can have a B18 in there, and be faster than your car, all for the same cash outlay. So how is your Euro car better at racing than a jap car?

The stock motor makes 190HP with a stock turbo charger and intercooler.

In order to be making 450HP at the crank, you would have to be running MASSIVE amounts of boost. You couple that with stock valve springs, stock bearings, stock internals and stock gaskets and you have a ticking time bomb.

With forged internals, you could be making 450.

Not saying that it's not possible, but it would take more than just bolting a cam and a turbo on the car.
It doesn't much more than bolt-ons and a better turbo. The crank is forged from the factory, as is the case with the vast majority of boosted factory cars from Japan. Hell, many of the non-boosted cars from Japan in the 90's had forged stock cranks, especially Nissans. For DSM's, pistons are the first weak link, followed very closely by the rods. The crank and block will take 1000HP all day long. Something that even most Mustangs can't claim, especially the 5.0 cars. 4.6 blocks are a bit stronger tho.

[1Kurgan1]

Well, people have been doing that for the past 15 or so years, so it's not like this is anything new. Of course, built motors become more commonplace as time goes on if for no other reason than the aftermarket is big enough now and the prices are right where if you're doing even a standard, high-mileage rebuild you "may as well" put even better stuff in.

MASSIVE amounts of boost? Define "MASSIVE." :D If it takes "massive" amounts of boost to do 450bhp, I wonder what the adjective for the boost is for the guys who are actually fast. :p

Only the 4 bolt blocks are worth the money, which is why you said 92. Any of the others are pretty crappy and aren't going to hold that kind of power, my cousins bone stock 95 TSi crank walked with 80k on it. And before that it popped a turbo and tossed a clutch, he put a lot of money into repairing that car.

[Deusxmachina]

Only the 4 bolt blocks are worth the money, which is why you said 92. Any of the others are pretty crappy and aren't going to hold that kind of power, my cousins bone stock 95 TSi crank walked with 80k on it.

You're close. 6-bolt block. Although some will argue the main crankwalking cars were just (or "just") a bad 95 maybe 96 run from the factory since you don't really hear of the other years walking much if at all. And EVOs always had 7-bolts over the years and there was never much (any?) crankwalk talk about those, so maybe the ones to watch out for are indeed only the 95 and maybe 96 American-made cars. ...which might be useful info if getting a "30k-miles" used engine from Japan.

Various shops and people have said even walked 7s are fine if you rebuild them right. Beats me. Not something I've paid attention to. With the age of ALL those engines, though, that's something to read up on for a lot of people since, EVOs aside, the newest of those American engines are still 10 years old now, and nothing lasts forever.

7-bolts still hold power well, although they do have weaker rods. "Weaker" is of course a relative term since the 6-bolt rods are some honkers. These things have done over 600whp, so, again, relative.

They aren't the first car to crankwalk, either. Off the top of my head, Miatas had some issues, for instance.

Regardless, no car is perfect. Vettes from the past 10 years are pretty close, though. ;)

[1Kurgan1]

You're close. 6-bolt block. Although some will argue the main crankwalking cars were just (or "just") a bad 95 maybe 96 run from the factory since you don't really hear of the other years walking much if at all. And EVOs always had 7-bolts over the years and there was never much (any?) crankwalk talk about those, so maybe the ones to watch out for are indeed only the 95 and maybe 96 American-made cars. ...which might be useful info if getting a "30k-miles" used engine from Japan.

Various shops and people have said even walked 7s are fine if you rebuild them right. Beats me. Not something I've paid attention to. With the age of ALL those engines, though, that's something to read up on for a lot of people since, EVOs aside, the newest of those American engines are still 10 years old now, and nothing lasts forever.

7-bolts still hold power well, although they do have weaker rods. "Weaker" is of course a relative term since the 6-bolt rods are some honkers. These things have done over 600whp, so, again, relative.

They aren't the first car to crankwalk, either. Off the top of my head, Miatas had some issues, for instance.

Regardless, no car is perfect. Vettes from the past 10 years are pretty close, though. ;)

Ah, my bad, been a long time since I did DSM research, knew 92-94 had the best blocks though. His was indeed a 95, fun car, but maintenance whore. Good info there on the rest, I never looked at Evo blocks as they were too knew and pricey. There a few cars that crank walk, anything can really happen, Miata though, better off crank walking, those cars just need a beefier motor dropped in them to catch my eye.

[Deusxmachina]

Ah, my bad, been a long time since I did DSM research, knew 92-94 had the best blocks though. His was indeed a 95, fun car, but maintenance whore. Good info there on the rest, I never looked at Evo blocks as they were too knew and pricey.

That's the weird part. 95s have done the crankwalk thing, but 92.5s, 93s, and 94s have 7-bolts, too, and don't, so I guess something weird happened at the 2g model change-over. What do they say... never buy the first year of a new car or a redesign? That's maybe good advice.

The EVO blocks had everything reversed for the past years, so only the earlier ones would fit an Eclipse. To be clear, I mainly just meant that EVOs in the states still offered the 2-liter/AWD package fans have come to know and love, but those engines won't drop into a DSM, so it's either rebuild a U.S. DSM engine, or drop in an early JDM EVO or Galant engine (or a 2.4l).

Or, what you can do is get an engine out of a Supra and do a 2JZ swap...

http://i39.tinypic.com/wlduno.jpg

[1Kurgan1]

That has always been one of my favorite pictures. But also one thing that I'm wondering is how stout is the drivetrain on DSM's. I just can't imagine them standing up to that kind of power and pulling off good launches, something eventually has to give. And a tranny failure is just as bad as a engine failure in my book. Part of the reason I got out of the SHO game, after tossing 3 differential pins through tranny casings it just got old.

[Deusxmachina]

That has always been one of my favorite pictures. But also one thing that I'm wondering is how stout is the drivetrain on DSM's. I just can't imagine them standing up to that kind of power and pulling off good launches, something eventually has to give. And a tranny failure is just as bad as a engine failure in my book. Part of the reason I got out of the SHO game, after tossing 3 differential pins through tranny casings it just got old.

Well, you know how it is, the more you beat on it, the more chance of it breaking. If a car lives its life a 1/4-mile at a time, every mile on it is going to be pretty rough compared to a daily-driver or even weekend-warrior. Put slicks on any car, launch off the rev-limiter, and see how long it lasts, y'know?

And that's what a lot of people do with AWD cars. They launch the piss out of them constantly, track, highway onramps, stoplights, and then they are surprised when they break something. Just because you can do a 1.6 60-foot on street tires doesn't mean you should. :D Even aftermarket stuff can have problems. I remember a Mustang guy with his new Tremec trans, had it for a week, ran an 11 or two at the track, it broke, and he was so mad he slammed his door closed hard enough to break the window.

I'd say anyone with a mild DSM, say, around 350bhp, has almost nothing to worry about, it may as well be a stock car unless he's beating the piss out of it. And that's a mid-12 car, which sounds slow when talking about 11s and 10s and all that, but a solid-12 car is pretty wicked for most people on the street. The first Viper "only" did 12s@112 or so. Not overly impressive, especially nowadays.

So much depends on how you drive it. I was talking to a local guy with a I think it was a 610whp Talon and asked him about breaking. He said it wasn't really a problem at all for the way he drives, but if he started constantly launching off the two-step using anti-lag, yeah, it'd probably become a problem.

I've had my fill of quick FWDs and don't plan on ever having another one. Torque-steer, wheel-hop, no traction.... they can be a load of fun even at lower power levels, but I think the fun comes more from "this is scary" kind of fun, which isn't the good kind of fun. If you floor a strong FWD in a low gear, be ready to put a turn signal on because you might be making an unintended lane change. Is that fun? In a way, it is. On the flipside, AWD can be downright boring.

I read the following a long time ago, and it's always stuck with me, and fortunately it wasn't too hard to scrounge up. The guy had a 300-some hp AWD Talon and raced it a lot in SCCA or whatever before getting a Porsche 944 turbo and driving and racing that.


>Maybe we ought to tear apart a new Porsche Turbo... it has 400hp from the
>factory and is bullet proof as far as I've heard. The Nissan Skyline GTR
>also has AWD and makes gobs and gobs of power. It can run 10's on street
>tires.

As far as the Porsche goes, the weak link there is the clutch. No one
has ever broken a transfer case or rear-end on a stock clutch in a DSM.
There was a fellow I know with a new 911 TT that took it drag racing.
He revved it up to 6000rpm, dumped the clutch, the car's clutch slipped
all the way down the track. He ran 15.X @ 110mph, it was pretty gross.
The car stunk when he brought it back. Well, that car is now traded in
and he's waiting for his 911 Turbo S to arrive.
The Skyline on the other hand has an awesome drivetrain, which can handle
some serious power.

>In last month's Turbo, there is a Hynudai looking rally car that has what
>looks like a Mitsubishi turbo engine. It has 400+ hp and AWD. What ever
>drivetrain it has, it hooks up to a Mitsubishi engine. I think TAD worked on
>the car. I'll go do some research!

If you take a car to a gravel road, you can put 700hp down with our
stock drivetrains and probably a stock clutch, the tires will spin, not
the clutch or the drivetrain. These guys only have to launch perhaps once
every four to five races on ashpalt and even that's on cold slick tires
that spin easily. For the record, I never broke any drivetrain parts on
my car and I really sh*t kicked that poor thing, but then I don't launch
off the rev limiter either :)

I kind of want to get something off my chest here, so please allow me to
vent. How the hell do people think the drivetrains in these cars are
weak? You can do a 12 second run at 110mph without breaking anything
and people consider this weak? Most AWD cars that come from the factory,
including big $$ Porsches will destroy their clutch if you do this and if
you get a better clutch, it will break the gearbox or an axle. Many a
911 Turbo and 944 Turbo have broken axles from launching hard.

I think
some people don't understand the forces involved in launching a 3200lb
AWD car with 350hp. If you don't do a 4500rpm launch at the track,
YOU WILL NOT break parts, you won't be as fast, but you won't break
parts. I know Ferrera said that he was still breaking parts even with
granny shifts, but that I can guarantee was his clutch choice. Even a
granny shift with a 4-puck clutch will be too much stress for the
drivetrain. But, I have to give credit to Ferrera for trying different
things. I know we'll be ordering a carbon fibre driveshaft to reduce
the rotating mass down there. I broke three diffs in my FWD car from
a poor choice of parts, but I learnt too :)

Now that I own a RWD car, I feel kind of sorry for my old Talon. In the
Porsche, when you shift into second hard, it goes all squirmy and the tires
spin like crazy. The AWD obviously stopped this from happening, but the
clutch I'm sure took a hammering as did the transfer case and diffs.

I remember reading an english magazine where they took a 400hp Escort
Cosworth and painted a white stripe down the center driveshaft. They
took it up the limiter and dropped the clutch. The car did a high 3
second 0-60 and did the 1/4 mile in something like low 12's @ 112mph.
The white stripe had warped around the driveshaft! We should do this
to Dave's car one day, maybe he can wrap it around a couple of times.

[Wile E]

As far as the DSMs, 400whp seems to be the general consensus on the stock drivetrain's limit. That's with the "weekend warrior" type of use.

As Deus said, it depends largely on the driving style tho. Drive harder, and it will die quicker or handle less horsepower, drive easier, and it will last longer or handle more horses. 400whp just seems to be about the average people are able to achieve with reasonable reliability.

Hell, you can even destroy a stock DSM's drivetrain if you beat on it constantly.

[1Kurgan1]

the gas, no breaking my tires will pop loose without a problem. So really just takes stress off the drivetrain, but now that I mentioned that, all I have really had is FWD cars, at least any car that was mildly fast.

My SHO's were torque steer monsters, but the GTX has none, I can even lay on it through a corner and not an issue, tires might light up, but the thing gives nice flat straight power, really shocking and I should be knocking on 12's so if it was going to have it, it should have shown some sign by now.

But pretty impressive to hear they can hold that kind of power stock.

[Deusxmachina]

the gas, no breaking my tires will pop loose without a problem. So really just takes stress off the drivetrain, but now that I mentioned that, all I have really had is FWD cars, at least any car that was mildly fast.

My SHO's were torque steer monsters, but the GTX has none, I can even lay on it through a corner and not an issue, tires might light up, but the thing gives nice flat straight power, really shocking and I should be knocking on 12's so if it was going to have it, it should have shown some sign by now.

But pretty impressive to hear they can hold that kind of power stock.

Did you get a lot of wheel-hop with the SHO? That's arguably what really breaks FWDs. It doesn't feel good when you're doing it, that's for sure! Would rather spin 'em than wheel-hop.

...that's an amusing answer to a problem...
"I keep breaking my FWD, what should I do?"
"Just launch harder, and make sure you spin the tires."

Sucks that they don't make things like the Cobalt RWD. AWD can be boring, and FWD can be annoying. Now there was a car... Merkur XRT4i. Not the nicest thing for cruising, maybe due to the short wheelbase, but it had two great things: RWD and turbocharged.

A GTX what? Mazda?

[Wile E]

Did you get a lot of wheel-hop with the SHO? That's arguably what really breaks FWDs. It doesn't feel good when you're doing it, that's for sure! Would rather spin 'em than wheel-hop.

...that's an amusing answer to a problem...
"I keep breaking my FWD, what should I do?"
"Just launch harder, and make sure you spin the tires."

Sucks that they don't make things like the Cobalt RWD. AWD can be boring, and FWD can be annoying. Now there was a car... Merkur XRT4i. Not the nicest thing for cruising, maybe due to the short wheelbase, but it had two great things: RWD and turbocharged.

A GTX what? Mazda?Grand Prix GTX, if I'm not mistaken.

And have you seen the New Hyundai Genesis Coupe? RWD, and the base model comes with a detuned to 210HP 4B11 (engine found in the Evo X). I'm very curious to see what comes of this car in the aftermarket.

[Deusxmachina]

Grand Prix GTX, if I'm not mistaken.

And have you seen the New Hyundai Genesis Coupe? RWD, and the base model comes with a detuned to 210HP 4B11 (engine found in the Evo X). I'm very curious to see what comes of this car in the aftermarket.

Didn't think of that. Thought all the Grands Prix were GTPs.

The Genesis was rumored to get a turbo4, but the website just says a V6 and V8.

[T3hPwn3r3r]

Genesis coupe has a turbo 4, but Genesis coupes are notable (Korean spec) at least for horrible build quality and airbag failure.

One reviewer said "Do they think the Korean people are fools? That we don't know good cars?"

[Wile E]

Didn't think of that. Thought all the Grands Prix were GTPs.

The Genesis was rumored to get a turbo4, but the website just says a V6 and V8.

I might be mistaken about his car.

As far as the Genesis, it comes with either a 2.0L turbo 4, or a 3.8 V6.

http://www.hyundaiusa.com/vehicle/GenesisCoupe/GenesisCoupe.aspx

[1Kurgan1]

Did you get a lot of wheel-hop with the SHO? That's arguably what really breaks FWDs. It doesn't feel good when you're doing it, that's for sure! Would rather spin 'em than wheel-hop.

...that's an amusing answer to a problem...
"I keep breaking my FWD, what should I do?"
"Just launch harder, and make sure you spin the tires."

Sucks that they don't make things like the Cobalt RWD. AWD can be boring, and FWD can be annoying. Now there was a car... Merkur XRT4i. Not the nicest thing for cruising, maybe due to the short wheelbase, but it had two great things: RWD and turbocharged.

A GTX what? Mazda?

Nope, no wheel hope, they are just famous for tossing diff pins. I never had any pop from a stop, those cars have major traction issues, I think the fastest 60 ft time I have ever heard of out of a SHO is like 2.1 on DR's. The guys pushing 450 - 500whp run like 13.2 at 125mph, lol. They are also famous once the 350tq mark to blow 3rd gear. The tranny design is the MTX IV which was based off an escort tranny :mad: Seriously don't know what Ford was thinking, lets send a motor to Yamaha to get built then use a damn escort transmission, sounds like a great idea! My last SHO I even welding in the diff pins and they still worked their ways out, just very slowly, they didn't blow holes in my transmission, they just created a big 1mm holes all the way around the casing :/

And yep, Grand Prix GTX, same as a GTP, just diff hood, 17" rims, GTX floormats/keyring, and a few other looks goodies from the factory, it's got full suspension work though, so many thats why, I can actually toss the backend out on corners if I want with a FWD :D But GTP's are pretty famous for being great 1/4 cars for FWD, I hear of a lot of people pushing 1.9 - 2.0 60ft with street tires, thats pretty sick for a FWD.

http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/1474380/800/My-Car/GTX-Pass-Front---No-Date.jpg

And yeah the XRti4's were interesting cars, butt ugly, could be made to look decent, really small RWD car though, wish we would see more of that, partially why I think the BMW 135i is so damn wicked.

[Deusxmachina]

The last two times I searched for Hyundai Genesis, I only saw the luxo version. Guess I should've looked harder. Looks good so far. A quick glance shows differing reports on what's actually inside the engine. One site says he talked to three of the most informed guys on the subject, and they basically said the motor is somewhat similar but weaker. Guess we'll see.

[1Kurgan1]

The Genesis coupe just came out, the 3.8L has been the comparo for the V6 Camaro's, been on a few mag covers, it's slightly quicker because the weight advantage.

[Wile E]

I'd rather have the 2.0 turbo Genesis. The 4B11 already has huge aftermarket support, thanks to the Evo.

[1Kurgan1]

But whats done to shave off 74hp from the Evo and 83hp from the Caliber? I'm doubting it's just boost drop, as the turbo would most likely barely be putting out anything then. It even looks like the Evo has a lower compression slightly.

[Deusxmachina]

The Genesis has a giant scrunch on the exhaust. That won't help things.

It's quite possible a large part of it is from lower boost. I don't know what the Genesis is pumping out, (nor what kind of turbo it has), but if it's only like 10psi, 10psi is girly boost.

[Wile E]

Restrictive exhaust and a smaller turbo with less boost would be my guesses. Maybe milder cams and less aggressive timing. The Evo X peaks at 23psi stock, and tapers down to around 14psi near redline. Knock that value down to 7-10psi, across the board, and you have a huge chunk of power gone. Add that to a restrictive exhaust, and the lower boost alone may be able to pull it off, without even needing to change the cams or engine timing.

A good baseline to use to figure these things out in a rough manner is to realize that power added by boost, is generally pretty linear. Not perfectly linear, but close enough to make decent estimates. If you take a naturally aspirated engine, adding 14.7lbs of boost doubles the HP. So a 200HP NA motor, makes near 400HP with 14.7psi, provided the engine is able to handle the boost, and the exhaust is up to the task of flowing 400hp worth of air. 22.05psi (+7.35psi AKA: half of 14.7) would take that another 100HP up. Believe it or not, iirc, it was Muscle Mustangs and Fast Fords that did the extensive testing on this that I read, on a Focus to boot.

And by Caliber, did you mean the Dodge Caliber, Kurgan? If so, completely different engine.

[1Kurgan1]

Ah I didn't realize they ran that much boost stock, suppose it is possible for them to cut a lot out, thats pretty crazy though, how much can someone reliably make on the street with those things, I can't imagine adding much more boost without having to run some pretty pricey gas or take other methods like advancing the timing which will kill the performance anyways.

But yep meant the Caliber, but I guess thats a 4B12, I guess there is a 4B10 motor too, not sure in what though. So I wonder what beyond displacement is the diff between the 2 or if the 4b12 can be bored farther, if so 4b12 block + 4b11 head = fun

[Wile E]

Ah I didn't realize they ran that much boost stock, suppose it is possible for them to cut a lot out, thats pretty crazy though, how much can someone reliably make on the street with those things, I can't imagine adding much more boost without having to run some pretty pricey gas or take other methods like advancing the timing which will kill the performance anyways.

But yep meant the Caliber, but I guess thats a 4B12, I guess there is a 4B10 motor too, not sure in what though. So I wonder what beyond displacement is the diff between the 2 or if the 4b12 can be bored farther, if so 4b12 block + 4b11 head = fun

Well, the high boost comes at lower rpms, therefore engine load is lower. At peak engine loads, the boost is only making it to 14psi, because of the small turbo they decided to use. They emphasized tuning on response and midrange, sacrificing top end. If you bolt a better turbo on there, even if you just eliminate boost roll off, I'm willing to bet there's a fair bit more power left to be had. And 93 octane should be able to cope with 24psi fairly well. Not so sure about the 91oct California piss-water tho.

As far as 2.0 vs 2.4, it comes from both bore and stroke. The 2.0 has a bore and stroke of 86x86mm, the 2.4 is 88mm x 97mm:eek: 4B10 is a 1.8L variant.

I bet the factory 2.0 block could be bored to 88mm, but this is an open deck design, so the 86mm bore would have better strength. Considering both blocks are the same family, the length and width dimensions are probably the same, the deck height is likely what differs (which is generally the case when an engine family has a broad range of displacements).

[Deusxmachina]

Ah I didn't realize they ran that much boost stock, suppose it is possible for them to cut a lot out, thats pretty crazy though, how much can someone reliably make on the street with those things, I can't imagine adding much more boost without having to run some pretty pricey gas or take other methods like advancing the timing which will kill the performance anyways.


Depends on the compression ratio, gas, efficiency of turbo and intercooler, tune, etc. A bigger turbo is generally more efficient than a smaller one. It pumps more volume into the same psi. 10psi on a stage eleventeen turbo might be equal to, say, 20psi on what the Genesis or most cars probably come with.

Pretty standard nowadays "backyard, shadetree mechanic, daily-driver" stuff for a 4g63 AWD is around 400whp on 93 octane using a 50-trim turbo running 22-24psi or so. Something bigger like a 60-1 or 35R or whatever can generally do more horsepower, or the same horsepower at less boost. There are 500+whp on 93 octane ones running around.

E85 gas is sort of like race gas. There are 700-ish whp ones on e85. I'd mention their 1/4-mile times, but it's hard to know if they've been gutted for weight or whatever. Also, dynos can read differently on the same car, so dyno numbers aren't absolutes. Still usually in the ballpark more or less, though.

For most people with DSMs and EVOs, I'd say, pretty much regardless of turbo, 20psi is sort of the "set it and forget it" number. You'll hear comments like, "Yeah, I run 30psi at the track on good gas, could probably run mid 20s on 93 no problem, but I drive the car every day and 20psi is plenty of power and has a good margin of error if I get a bad tank of gas or something." It's like, when in doubt, just set it for 20psi.

It can be amusing when people new to such a thing hear 20psi considered to be "low boost."

[1Kurgan1]

Yeah thats pretty crazy to hear 1 1/4 atmospheric pressure being called low pressure. Interesting that the boost pressure varies, wonder how big of a difference it makes though as I am surprised they can build more boost with lower RPM's.

Really interesting to hear the boost numbers people push through these 4 poppers though, I'm use to 6's and 8's and seeing much lower numbers. Pretty crazy though.

[Wile E]

Yeah thats pretty crazy to hear 1 1/4 atmospheric pressure being called low pressure. Interesting that the boost pressure varies, wonder how big of a difference it makes though as I am surprised they can build more boost with lower RPM's.

Really interesting to hear the boost numbers people push through these 4 poppers though, I'm use to 6's and 8's and seeing much lower numbers. Pretty crazy though.

Well, small twin-scroll turbos spool very quickly. so they achieve boost with little to no lag.

And bigger turboes don't mean more efficiency, dues. It's all about design. For the most part, 10psi is 10 psi. The only thing that differs is spool speed, and heat output. If you aren't running a turbo intended for a bike engine at 10psi on a 4B11, heat output won't really be a concern, so that leaves spool time. A smaller turbo is likely to put out more power over a broader range than a larger turbo, thereby making it faster, if at the same boost levels, both share the same bearing design, and both are being used in an optimal efficiency range.

Running 10psi on a GT35, for instance, is completely pointless. A GT28 will outperform it at 10psi in almost every way.

[Deusxmachina]

And bigger turboes don't mean more efficiency, dues. It's all about design. For the most part, 10psi is 10 psi. The only thing that differs is spool speed, and heat output.
If you aren't running a turbo intended for a bike engine at 10psi on a 4B11, heat output won't really be a concern, so that leaves spool time. A smaller turbo is likely to put out more power over a broader range than a larger turbo, thereby making it faster, if at the same boost levels, both share the same bearing design, and both are being used in an optimal efficiency range.

Running 10psi on a GT35, for instance, is completely pointless. A GT28 will outperform it at 10psi in almost every way.

I said "in general" bigger turbos are more efficient. And "in general" they are, due to the heat issue you just mentioned. Keeping things simple here.

And, yes, a properly-sized-for-the-application turbo can make for a faster car due to a better powerband.

Here's an example of what I was talking about: there is not a single 4g63 2.0 making 500hp with a factory T25 turbo, regardless of psi and regardless if the engine has every other mod on the planet. It might make, oh, let's say 275hp at 20psi. Slap on a 60-1 or whatever at 20psi, and it might just do 500hp. Drop the 60-1 to 10psi, and you'll probably have a hard time not making 275 like the T25 needed 20psi to do. Over and over again, you'll (in general) see big turbos putting up bigger numbers at the same psi as a smaller turbo.

This is along the same lines as why when someone's stock turbo dies and they for whatever reason slap a honkin' big one on there with stock everything else and ask what's a safe psi to run, people will tell them not to run over 10psi or whatever even if they were running 20psi on the T-too-small (T25). If for no other reason, the stock injectors and fuel pump won't be able to keep up at more than 10psi.

Why is the person maxing out his fuel at 10psi on a big turbo when he safely ran 20psi on the smaller, stock one?

What's your take on CFM ratings? Why are CFM ratings different at the same psi?

16G 550 CFM at 14.7 PSI
18G 600 CFM at 14.7 PSI
20G 650 CFM at 14.7 PSI
60-1 725 CFM at 14.7 PSI

Btw, you're a bit of a Honda guy, right? Why do Honda owners tend to use giant turbos at crazy-low psi on such small engines?

[1Kurgan1]

Well you really couldn't count a T25 on a completely built motor, as it just doesn't supply the air. Not really anything to do with it's efficiency, it's just not built for making those horsepower figures, the way you would judge it is the power under the curve for it's peak efficiency.

Of coarse a small one would be better in a lower boost/hp situation as it's smaller, spools faster, so it gets the same amount of air their faster, the bigger one will maybe have a bit up top, but wouldn't be worth it. But thats the reason there are diff sized turbos, need to pick the right size to spool fast and supply the air the motor needs, but you both know that :p

[Wile E]

I said "in general" bigger turbos are more efficient. And "in general" they are, due to the heat issue you just mentioned. Keeping things simple here.

And, yes, a properly-sized-for-the-application turbo can make for a faster car due to a better powerband.

Here's an example of what I was talking about: there is not a single 4g63 2.0 making 500hp with a factory T25 turbo, regardless of psi and regardless if the engine has every other mod on the planet. It might make, oh, let's say 275hp at 20psi. Slap on a 60-1 or whatever at 20psi, and it might just do 500hp. Drop the 60-1 to 10psi, and you'll probably have a hard time not making 275 like the T25 needed 20psi to do. Over and over again, you'll (in general) see big turbos putting up bigger numbers at the same psi as a smaller turbo.

This is along the same lines as why when someone's stock turbo dies and they for whatever reason slap a honkin' big one on there with stock everything else and ask what's a safe psi to run, people will tell them not to run over 10psi or whatever even if they were running 20psi on the T-too-small (T25). If for no other reason, the stock injectors and fuel pump won't be able to keep up at more than 10psi.

Why is the person maxing out his fuel at 10psi on a big turbo when he safely ran 20psi on the smaller, stock one?

What's your take on CFM ratings? Why are CFM ratings different at the same psi?

16G 550 CFM at 14.7 PSI
18G 600 CFM at 14.7 PSI
20G 650 CFM at 14.7 PSI
60-1 725 CFM at 14.7 PSI

Btw, you're a bit of a Honda guy, right? Why do Honda owners tend to use giant turbos at crazy-low psi on such small engines?These are examples of people that are using Turbos well outside of their efficiency range. I didn't think that's what you were referring to.

CFM ratings are ok go along with maps for selecting the right turbo for your setup. I prefer the maps alone tho, as they offer a bit more info, obviously.

And I'm not actually a Honda fan. Just a guy who happened to get a good Civic for dirt cheap, and one that realizes it's dirt cheap to mod. I'd rather have a rwd Nissan, tbh. (I also own an 04 Setra Spec-V as well)

And I, to this day, still don't understand the giant turbo on low boost setups. It's a Fast and Furious type of disease. A case of the uneducated buying shit because they think it's "cool".

Personally, my goal, if I keep the Honda and swap it, is to generate somewhere around 450whp. I'll probably end up with a GT3071R or equivalent. Although, I heard rumors of a GT30RS version coming out. If it's anything the beast the GT28RS was in terms of making the same power, but spooling way faster, I'm sold, and may dedicate a build directly around it.

[1Kurgan1]

Would be impressive to see a Honda put down that much whp, even boosted don't see many putting down those kind of numbers.

[Deusxmachina]

These are examples of people that are using Turbos well outside of their efficiency range. I didn't think that's what you were referring to.


Well, there's still the case of the guy slapping a giant turbo onto an otherwise-stock car and not being able to run more than, say, 10psi or else he'll max out the fuel system. Does that mean the stock turbo was out of its efficiency range even at stock boost settings? Maybe so. And it would be no wonder why so many people take it off as soon as possible. :p

Just some real-world examples. A car can have various-sized turbos on it, (within reason), and they all will work "fine," albeit with some differences. The main point was 20psi doesn't necessarily equal 20psi as far as making horsepower goes.

Another thing of interest since we're throwing around the subject, is with turbo sizes and spooling is the theory that smaller, quick-spooling, spikey turbos break more parts than a bigger turbo that might make more torque but comes on smoother. More power breaks less parts? "Save your transmission, use a big turbo." :) Just amusing is all.

Good luck with the Honda if you go that route. I see pretty much any FWD past a certain power level as a waste of time and a form of aggravation when driving it. And, really, they become dangerous.

[1Kurgan1]

Another thing of interest since we're throwing around the subject, is with turbo sizes and spooling is the theory that smaller, quick-spooling, spikey turbos break more parts than a bigger turbo that might make more torque but comes on smoother. More power breaks less parts? "Save your transmission, use a big turbo." :) Just amusing is all.

Torque breaks parts, especially transmissions, with the lower gears multiplying by such a great amount. A huge amount of torque at lower rpm's will cause more things to break. I mean this is within reason, can't go comparing a 300hp motor and a 1200hp motor, because the 1200hp motors chart may look weak down low, but it's always going to be making more power at any rpm vs a 300hp motor.

[Deusxmachina]

Torque breaks parts, especially transmissions, with the lower gears multiplying by such a great amount. A huge amount of torque at lower rpm's will cause more things to break. I mean this is within reason, can't go comparing a 300hp motor and a 1200hp motor, because the 1200hp motors chart may look weak down low, but it's always going to be making more power at any rpm vs a 300hp motor.

Well, if we consider a launch, let's say a car launches with good traction with 250lbs-ft compared to having 300lbs-ft anywhere except right off a sudden start. Which breaks more parts? Probably the suddenly-applied 250lbs-ft.

Or not. Just tossing it out there. I suppose a similar comparison might be how nitrous kicks in vs. how a turbo kicks in.

Interestingly, the first guy I know of who did 500whp on 93 octane with a 4g63 kept breaking 4th gear. He installed a transmission cooler, and I guess it was ok after that. I don't know if he kept rebuilding the same transmission and there was a flaw in that specific transmission or something, which, while perhaps unlikely, is possible.

[Wile E]

Well, there's still the case of the guy slapping a giant turbo onto an otherwise-stock car and not being able to run more than, say, 10psi or else he'll max out the fuel system. Does that mean the stock turbo was out of its efficiency range even at stock boost settings? Maybe so. And it would be no wonder why so many people take it off as soon as possible. :p

Just some real-world examples. A car can have various-sized turbos on it, (within reason), and they all will work "fine," albeit with some differences. The main point was 20psi doesn't necessarily equal 20psi as far as making horsepower goes.

Another thing of interest since we're throwing around the subject, is with turbo sizes and spooling is the theory that smaller, quick-spooling, spikey turbos break more parts than a bigger turbo that might make more torque but comes on smoother. More power breaks less parts? "Save your transmission, use a big turbo." :) Just amusing is all.

Good luck with the Honda if you go that route. I see pretty much any FWD past a certain power level as a waste of time and a form of aggravation when driving it. And, really, they become dangerous.

It would only be a problem from a dig. Around town, I would run in lower boost. The only reason I want that much HP, is for occasional trip to the strip, where I'd be running on stickies of some sort, and the occasional challenge on the highway. :D

[1Kurgan1]

Well, if we consider a launch, let's say a car launches with good traction with 250lbs-ft compared to having 300lbs-ft anywhere except right off a sudden start. Which breaks more parts? Probably the suddenly-applied 250lbs-ft.

Yeah its from the start thats the issue, and a good launch is going to be you building some RPM's, probably 2500ish, which would allow most turbos to spool and kick the crap out of your tranny.

It would only be a problem from a dig. Around town, I would run in lower boost. The only reason I want that much HP, is for occasional trip to the strip, where I'd be running on stickies of some sort, and the occasional challenge on the highway. :D

I don't mind racing from lights, but it's asking to get caught doing that kind of stuff in town, plus mostly open roads here so I get a lot more freeway races, I would go for the flat out power, but thats because my situation most likely.

[reverze]

German Engineering..

Audi

Looking for a 2003/2004 Audi A4 at the moment..

[mtosev]

This is the best car ever:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/36/Trabant_601_Estate.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/31/Trabant_Polizeiversion.jpg
Its a German car :D

[T3hPwn3r3r]

http://www.thetorquereport.com/vw_passat_cc_gold_coast4.jpg

'Nuff said.

[FordGT90Concept]

http://cache.gawker.com/assets/images/jalopnik/2009/01/2010-Ford-Taurus.jpg
'Nuff said.

[3991v]

http://www.hdwallpapers.com/photo/albums/Car_pictures/Chevrolet_Camaro_2010_3.jpg

Sexiest car on the market today IMO.

[T3hPwn3r3r]

http://www.carforums.net/reviews/makes/pictures/seat12.jpg

Spain... fuck yeah!

[FordGT90Concept]

http://www.hdwallpapers.com/photo/albums/Car_pictures/Chevrolet_Camaro_2010_3.jpg

Sexiest car on the market today IMO.
They killed the Camero because they had to. Why did they bring it back? Seriously, Chevrolet needs to decide between the Corvette and the Camero. Having both means they are equally half-assed.

Also, everyone (Ford Mustang) and their grandma (Dodge Charger) has done retro. Why did GM wait so long? I mean, it's like showing up to the party a day late. The latest trend in cars is all about fuel efficiency, not playing necromancer of dead cars (Charger/Camero).


http://www.carforums.net/reviews/makes/pictures/seat12.jpg

Spain... fuck yeah!
Fugly.

[3991v]

They killed the Camero because they had to. Why did they bring it back? Seriously, Chevrolet needs to decide between the Corvette and the Camero. Having both means they are equally half-assed.

Also, everyone (Ford Mustang) and their grandma (Dodge Charger) has done retro. Why did GM wait so long? I mean, it's like showing up to the party a day late. The latest trend in cars is all about fuel efficiency, not playing necromancer of dead cars (Charger/Camero).


The charger looks like shit IMO (well, the only good ones were from 67 to 69). And I'd take the new Camaro over a new Mustang or Charger any day.. it look so fucking awesome... (and much better than the new Taurus)

[T3hPwn3r3r]

Yeah man hatches are for wimminz!

[Wile E]

The charger looks like shit IMO (well, the only good ones were from 67 to 69). And I'd take the new Camaro over a new Mustang or Charger any day.. it look so fucking awesome... (and much better than the new Taurus)

I'd take a Taurus SHO over either the Charger or the Camaro any day. AWD, and I'm sure the twin turbo 3.5 has some power left on the table. The new Camaro, it does not impress me.

[3991v]

I'd take a Taurus SHO over either the Charger or the Camaro any day. AWD, and I'm sure the twin turbo 3.5 has some power left on the table. The new Camaro, it does not impress me.

It seems we can't agree on anything :eek: The Camaro is my favorite zombie car, I wouldn't mind cruising around in one of those and BTW I'm not strictly any brand, either but I prefer GM.

[Wile E]

It seems we can't agree on anything :eek:

Well, that's mostly because I have taste. lol :p :D

[T3hPwn3r3r]

Well, that's mostly because I have taste. lol :p :D

Word up on the street is the SHO will only have an auto trans.

Edit:
According to Wikipedia this is true.

Also... It's not even made to handle the power of the SHO

"Ford claims the 6F is designed to handle 300 hp (224 kW) and 280 ft·lbf (380 N·m)"

[Wile E]

Word up on the street is the SHO will only have an auto trans.

Edit:
According to Wikipedia this is true.

Also... It's not even made to handle the power of the SHO

"Ford claims the 6F is designed to handle 300 hp (224 kW) and 280 ft·lbf (380 N·m)"

Yeah, that's the downside to the SHO. I hate flappy paddle shifters.

And, as far as the 6F is concerned, Ford has always changed a few things in performance models, so the 6F in the SHO will be built better.

[T3hPwn3r3r]

I DID read something about it being clutch to clutch... does this mean it will be similar to Volkswagen's DSG? If so, that makes it ALMOST acceptable.

[Wile E]

I DID read something about it being clutch to clutch... does this mean it will be similar to Volkswagen's DSG? If so, that makes it ALMOST acceptable.

Still not quite what I want either. Is it too much to ask to give me a damn clutch pedal? That's my major concern really. It's the primary reason I'm not really interested in the R35 either. I want a user operated clutch dammit!!!

I can accept the sequential shifters, if I can control engagement.

[MRCL]

Soo... just jumping in the running discussion: American over European any day. Europeans just don't know how to build cars with style anymore.

[1Kurgan1]

The charger looks like shit IMO (well, the only good ones were from 67 to 69). And I'd take the new Camaro over a new Mustang or Charger any day.. it look so fucking awesome... (and much better than the new Taurus)

It's hard to compare a sports car to something with 4 doors. Ones made to look good and be a paint to use and the others meant to be functional, and if a sport model still look good. Either way I've owned 4 SHO's, and it always feels good when someone says something like that driving a Mustang or a Camaro then you just rip them a new one, was such a fun sleeper.

[FreedomEclipse]

I saw a Ford Mustang GT in stealth black the other day....my god i came in my pants so hard. Im not a huge car fan at all but that mustang just sitting there really just took my breath away. Its like bruce lee suddenly crawled out of his grave & gave me a 1 inch punch.

Unfortunately I didnt have a camera at the time & it was in the evening so even though I do have a 2mpx cam on my phone - it wouldnt of looked too great anyway.

I have never seen anything more beautiful....kit cars are kit cars but a Mustang GT in stealth black....omg...

[Wile E]

I saw a Ford Mustang GT in stealth black the other day....my god i came in my pants so hard. Im not a huge car fan at all but that mustang just sitting there really just took my breath away. Its like bruce lee suddenly crawled out of his grave & gave me a 1 inch punch.

Unfortunately I didnt have a camera at the time & it was in the evening so even though I do have a 2mpx cam on my phone - it wouldnt of looked too great anyway.

I have never seen anything more beautiful....kit cars are kit cars but a Mustang GT in stealth black....omg...

I want a Barricade replica from the TF movies. :D

[T3hPwn3r3r]

/implies Americans know anything about style


lol

[Tigger]

Did anyone see the new mclaren car? Its all built by mclaren this time and looks surweet indeed.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/driving/news/article6827511.ece
http://blogs.thetimes.co.za/wheeldeal/files/2009/09/mp4-12c-front.jpg

[Wile E]

Very sharp, but 600 is not enough horsepower for this class of car. Needs 750 minimum these days.

But I don't think that picture is it.

[Tigger]

Sorry,that was a mclaren slr.Its the right pic now. :S

[CyberDruid]

http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/5381/pagani2.jpg

http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/4034/pagani3.jpg