Cap and Trade

[Deusxmachina]

http://spectator.org/archives/2009/07/01/cap-and-trade-dementia

"Barack Obama called for House passage of the cap and trade tax bill last Friday by calling it a jobs bill. The bill is designed to raise the price of energy in the U.S. so much that it will reduce the use of fossil fuels by 17% by 2020 and by 83% by 2050. Sentencing the U.S. economy to high cost energy is not a particularly good strategy for creating jobs. The Charles River Associates, a Harvard based economics consulting firm, estimates a net loss of jobs from the bill of about 2.5 million each year.

This is surely a gross underestimate of the net job losses from a bill designed to reduce the use of fossil fuels to the level in 1907."

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123655590609066021.html

"Hit hardest would be the "95% of working families" Mr. Obama keeps mentioning, usually omitting that his no-new-taxes pledge comes with the caveat "unless you use energy." Putting a price on carbon is regressive by definition because poor and middle-income households spend more of their paychecks on things like gas to drive to work, groceries or home heating."

[Wile E]

Is he TRYING to ruin this country?

[FordGT90Concept]

That would have been alright 2003-2007, not in 2008-2011 (at least). There's already more and more talk that the recession is starting to deepen again. This is a very, very, VERY bad time to raise the price of anything.


Trying? More like succeeding. Banks are falling like flies, two of the big three have filed for bankruptcy protection, and there is what, $3.5 trillion federal debt expected in 2009 alone? I think he is beyond trying. Oh, Kim Jung Il wants to "play" too.

[Wile E]

I'm officially convinced he is the Anti-christ. He's gonna take us right to the brink of total collapse, then do something to reverse it, and take the credit for all the prosperity to follow, making him a world leader due to popularity, and then he's gonna burn us all. lol.

[Deusxmachina]

I'm officially convinced he is the Anti-christ.

Pretty much everything he does is just sooooo bad for the country, under the guise that it's good and helps "the poor." I always remembered Al Gore stating he'd raise gas taxes sky-high if he could so people would use less of it. Too bad the main people he is supposedly for, poor people, would be hit the hardest.

Pelosi and Gore are going to make a lot of money with the passing of this.

Obama, Pelosi, Reid. What's the opposite name for the Holy Trinity?

The S&P lost the 900 level the other day, for those who didn't know.

[FordGT90Concept]

Obama, Pelosi, Reid. What's the opposite name for the Holy Trinity?
The "Trinity of Doom" or "Unholy Trinity?"

[A Cheese Danish]

Yay to limit how much CO2 the trees can breathe...
Obama is just plain nuts...he is not doing anything positive

[Steevo]

Perhaps some of you don't understand that having people buy more is not the way out, this is designed to prevent the idiots from running a 8MPG SUV or old POS that spews out pollutants from driving around for joy rides.


I would love it if they put a extra 1.00 tax per gallon on diesel and gas, and used it to pay for better roads and or education to teach all the fuckwits in this country not to drive the biggest SUV/Truck they can find, 85MPH down the highway pulling a fifth wheel up the mountains to run their generator and watch TV at night. Hell, the more I think about it, lets make it $2 per gallon, and add a 7% luxury tax on all large cars and trucks without proof of buing it for a work related need.

[FordGT90Concept]

Perhaps some of you don't understand that having people buy more is not the way out, this is designed to prevent the idiots from running a 8MPG SUV or old POS that spews out pollutants from driving around for joy rides.
Economy = Exchanging goods of value.
Consumer Disposition = Everyone is holding on to their money for fear of running out.
Consumer Disposition + Economy = GDP Loss

If people don't start spending ("buying" is a very narrow term) more, we're on a slow decline to the next Great Depression (24.9% unemployed) unless something changes.

People don't have $30,000 cash laying around to buy a new car and even if they did, it is not likely they would spend it on a car unless they had no choice. They most likely are holding on to it in case the family income goes down. Remember, there are few incentives (dealer/tax/etc.) to buy a used car and new cars rapidly depreciate in value.

So please, quit hatin' people that drive large vehicles. They all have their reasons and they don't care if you disagree, especially in this economy.


I would love it if they put a extra 1.00 tax per gallon on diesel and gas, and used it to pay for better roads and or education to teach all the fuckwits in this country not to drive the biggest SUV/Truck they can find, 85MPH down the highway pulling a fifth wheel up the mountains to run their generator and watch TV at night. Hell, the more I think about it, lets make it $2 per gallon, and add a 7% luxury tax on all large cars and trucks without proof of buing it for a work related need.
That $1 is going to be paid for not only at the pump but also at your grocery store, purchasing small appliances, drugs, house heating/cooling, power, and pretty much everything else. If your employer has a lot of travel expenses, you might just have to pay for business travel out of pocket because they aren't making enough anymore to cover it. Be careful what you wish for.

Luxury tax would kill the vacationing industry which is already taking a beating. Hotels are seeing their lowest volumes in some 35 years. Some states have already passed new taxes on those hotels already adding to their burden. If you kill the RVers too, they'll probably just end up going 20 miles instead of 200-1000. People vacationing pump money into an economy from diverse parts of the nation. That is, places that aren't hit so hard tend to visit places that were hit hard because it is cheaper. It helps the parts of the nation out that are hurting the most to some extent. If the price is so high that they feel they can't go anywhere, then everyone loses.

[FordGT90Concept]

New estimates (http://www.theoildrum.com/tag/update) put peak oil production as already have been hit or hitting peak in 2010. Essentially, that means the point of no return--every year thereafter, oil production is expected to decline despite and increase in demand.

Oh, and our infrastructure (electrical, dams, bridges, roads, sewage, water, levees, etc.) got an average grade of D. In order to raise that grade to a B over the next five years would require 2.2 trillion dollars of investment in infrastructure.


I think we're brewing up a perfect storm (economic collapse, infrastructure collapse, and financial collapse)...

[Steevo]

Don't forget we are starting on the upswing of a solar cycle, the like of which has not occured for at least 22 years, and is more than likely going to cause major blackouts, GPS, and sat based communication issues, as well as other solar radiation problems.


In a world where people can borrow what they cannot repay, and they spend more than they have and accumulate more credit card debt than their yearly income (the type of economy we had) to reality you will find that the type of spending you suggest is the cause of your bust, and going to be the cause of the continued failure of the US economy, and the eventual bust of all major world economies.



This all started back when they were first borrowing for the US to get out of a great depression. And has just had a minor head when all the big players decided to fall down at once. If you fully realise what is happening you will understand the house of cards most of these companies built, borrowing cheap money to use and hopefully make more money, based off consumer spending confidence, when that failed and the consumers found it hard to get more credit that they cannot afford, it broke the companies. This isn't a stumble and scrape your knee thing here, it is years of lavish spending and out of control purchaes to keep up with your neighbour that is coming due.


If you can stomach the numbers read this. http://www.creditcards.com/credit-card-news/credit-card-industry-facts-personal-debt-statistics-1276.php#debt and realise that all it takes to force someone like your neighbour or mebey even you out is a couple missed paychecks and a few items going to collections.


Average debt per household (with or without a credit card) $8,329.00
Average outstanding balance carryover $10,679


How exactly does one accumulate 10K in credit card debt? Outlandish spending, lack of planing, lack of foresight, stupidity, etc.........

[DaMulta]

I know I was paying 4 dollars for a gallon of fuel under Bush.......

I think what he is doing will take time for it all to show to the top. Remember he walked into the White House with the US already majorly fucked......or did everyone forget that part?

[FordGT90Concept]

I know I was paying 4 dollars for a gallon of fuel under Bush.......

I think what he is doing will take time for it all to show to the top. Remember he walked into the White House with the US already majorly fucked......or did everyone forget that part?
a) Blaming Bush isn't going to fix anything.
b) By the time Obama is out of office, you could be paying $10-$40 per gallon if we have indeed passed peak oil.
c) When it did hit $4 a gallon, speculators believed we already were seeing the decline after peak oil. That was only a glimpse of what is to come.


@Steevo: I know how bad the public debt is and this recession was no doubt caused by it; however, compared to all the other problems that are rapidly approaching, this recession will look like a time for celebration. The excess spending has pretty much stopped in 2009 and those that couldn't afford their debt are declaring bankruptcy. I just hope people learned their lesson.


I forgot about the solar maximum. The entire grid could get knocked offline and take weeks/months to restore. A lot of the poles holding up power lines are deteriorating but not being replaced. Additionally, power lines are having to transmit loads that far exceed their original design. All the switching systems are also obsolete so, like we saw in the Northeast Corridor back in 2003, one small problem rapidly becomes a big one. Not good.

[Deusxmachina]

How exactly does one accumulate 10K in credit card debt? Outlandish spending, lack of planing, lack of foresight, stupidity, etc.........

Not outlandish at all, really. Well, not always. Hospital bills are often a big part of debt. One bad spill and it's bad news. Big car repairs -- new engine or trans, bam, $2500. (That might fall under the "lack of planning" umbrella.) Some people pay for college on a credit card, which actually isn't too bad if you can get a good rate.

So, there are some decent reasons it happens. But, yeah, a lot of people just buy stupid crap. Seems like half the people I know went down that road.

I know I was paying 4 dollars for a gallon of fuel under Bush.......


Can't wait to see what Cap and Trade brings. We've even got Steevo wanting you to pay more.

Did Bush have a Democratic Congress while gas was $4 a gallon? I forget.

[FordGT90Concept]

Did Bush have a Democratic Congress while gas was $4 a gallon? I forget.
110th Congress (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/110th_United_States_Congress) (January 2007-January 2009) had a Democratic majority in the Senate and the House. 111th Congress (January 2009-January 2011) has a filibuster-proof Democratic majority.

$4/gallon was in the Summer of 2008.


Democrats are talking about another "stimulus" bill and covering 47 some million under a government healthcare plan. By comparison, Canada's government healthcare system only covers 33 million at an enormous cost to every Canadian. Not to mention, 91 days wait time for a knee replacement surgery (three months you aren't a productive citizen) in Canada.


With every passing day, the situation grows more bleak. I'm not surprised at all that Wall Street took two major dives recently and is prepared to take another, and another, and another.

[Iarwain]

It's absurd to suck money out of the country via taxes and cap and trade, then push it back in via "stimulus"

Any rational person would see that the only point to the whole thing is to allow the government and politicians to spend it how they wish.

[Deusxmachina]

With every passing day, the situation grows more bleak. I'm not surprised at all that Wall Street took two major dives recently and is prepared to take another, and another, and another.

The best trader I know that I talk with nearly every day is looking for S&P around 4000 in 2010, with a run up to 10k this year before then.

Sometimes he's wrong.

[Steevo]

Not outlandish at all, really. Well, not always. Hospital bills are often a big part of debt. One bad spill and it's bad news. Big car repairs -- new engine or trans, bam, $2500. (That might fall under the "lack of planning" umbrella.) Some people pay for college on a credit card, which actually isn't too bad if you can get a good rate.

So, there are some decent reasons it happens. But, yeah, a lot of people just buy stupid crap. Seems like half the people I know went down that road.



Can't wait to see what Cap and Trade brings. We've even got Steevo wanting you to pay more.

Did Bush have a Democratic Congress while gas was $4 a gallon? I forget.

You can arrange payments with a hospital, and if you are paying as per uyour agreement they cannot turn you over to collections, the interest rate is much lower than a credt card.


A personal health insurance plan is 100ish a month for basic coverage, but if you choose to drink untill you pass out, smoke, and fuck everything that walks you should expect to pay more. If that is too much Aflak is there for cheap. I have multiple insurances for everything under the sun, and pay less than $300 a month for them all, life, health, Aflak, HSA deposit......


So take back your Furd Exploder, or Caddy, get rid of your 13 year olds cell, go back to basic cable that you don't watch, and return the 57" plasma that you have to impress the people you don't care about.


No more problems.

[FordGT90Concept]

A personal health insurance plan is 100ish a month for basic coverage, but if you choose to drink untill you pass out, smoke, and fuck everything that walks you should expect to pay more. If that is too much Aflak is there for cheap. I have multiple insurances for everything under the sun, and pay less than $300 a month for them all, life, health, Aflak, HSA deposit......
I'm guessing either you have government assistance or are extremely under insured.

[Papahyooie]

Wow... theres so much to chime in here on... the most tempting being the anti-Bush comments. All I'll allow myself to say is, I dont condone everything bush did by a long shot, but at least Bush did not intentionally pass laws to cause people to spend more for fuel... and I dont care what all you environmentalists say... there are more important problems at the moment than reducing the freakin greenhouse gasses... who the hell will care about our emissions when the economy is so fucked that nobody makes cars anymore? What the fuck does he expect us to do??? Use less gasoline, which means what? We're all going to buy overpriced hybrids??? The majority of the population can barely afford gasoline, much less a fucking prius! I have no problem being a good steward of the environment, and god knows being im an eagle scout in the BSA ive cleaned WAY more than my fair share of the environment. But this is absolutely rediculous.

[FordGT90Concept]

I'll say three facts relating to Bush's administration:
1) There was 52-months straight of economic growth.
2) Obama, in a few months, created more debt than all the Presidents that preceded him, combined.
3) Democrats were in control of the House and Senate a year and a half prior to the economy tanking.

If Republicans are solely to blame, wouldn't the collapse have happened in 2005 or very early 2006? My opinion is that this mess started when Greenspan decided to ignore housing back in the 1990's. Either party (or an independent) could have sounded the alarm and most importantly, do something about it, but they did not. Almost everyone is to blame for being asleep at the switch.

Hybrids cost about $6000-10,000 more than their non-hybrid counterparts. The only way that pays for itself is if the price of fuel skyrockets and you drive it a lot. Driving less is more beneficial to the environment than driving a hybrid.

[Iarwain]

I would like to point out the fact that not only will prices increase, on gas especially, but they will increase a lot more than just the tax.

The tax is going to discourage American companies from exploring for more oil, further pushing up the prices. American oil industry that's based in this country will be no longer competitive with Middle Eastern and Venezuelan oil, and as such that oil will have to be imported.

[FordGT90Concept]

USA hasn't produced a lot of oil in a since the 1960s/1970s. What the oil companies do is import from countries that do have a lot of cheap oil, they refine it, and they process it. There is some exploring, obviously, but there isn't anything in the way of get-rich-fast oil wells like there was throughout the mid-late 1900's. The oil that is out there is much harder to find and more costly to extract--the deposits are deeper and more scattered.


The bill passed the House on June 26. It has not yet passed the Senate. It is a partisan bill seeing majority of House Democrats supporting it and the majority of House Republicans opposing it.

I have a hard time believing Republicans will be able to stop it in the Senate. I wonder how much the stock markets will dive on the day it becomes law.

[Iarwain]

USA hasn't produced a lot of oil in a since the 1960s/1970s. What the oil companies do is import from countries that do have a lot of cheap oil, they refine it, and they process it. There is some exploring, obviously, but there isn't anything in the way of get-rich-fast oil wells like there was throughout the mid-late 1900's. The oil that is out there is much harder to find and more costly to extract--the deposits are deeper and more scattered.


The bill passed the House on June 26. It has not yet passed the Senate. It is a partisan bill seeing majority of House Democrats supporting it and the majority of House Republicans opposing it.

I have a hard time believing Republicans will be able to stop it in the Senate. I wonder how much the stock markets will dive on the day it becomes law.

But the point is, despite being more difficult to get to, when prices go up (and stay up, unlike last time) these harder-to-get-to depoists suddenly make sense. With taxes on it, the price at which they make sense goes up. Where before, it might have made sense to really dive into these deposits at 3.50 per gallon, now it might be 4 dollars, or 4.50. Depending on how hard they are on it, it could be higher than that.

So basically, there will be less stopping the price from going up.

[FordGT90Concept]

True, there will be more drive to tap them but, the question currently is, "at what expense?" No one knows how quickly the price of oil will rise and if tapping those deep pockets of oil will ever be economical.

[Steevo]

I'm guessing either you have government assistance or are extremely under insured.

Half million each for life, plus the 100K through work for me, and Aflak for another 50K.


Work provies HSA, and insurance with a $20 copay, vision, dental. I pay for the extra Aflak they don't provide, cancer insurance, and a few other little thigns for the family.


My wife went to the doc for a UTI and with the two perscriptions and co pay it cost $28. My daughters hospital and NICU bills were over 250K, we paid about four grand out of pocket.

House is overinsured by 30% for rebuild costs, I only use full coverage on the cars that need it like her highlander, the other three get basic , and expanded medical.





I don't smoke, drink some, and eat decently, excercise and haven't recieved a ticket in years. Insurance is cheap.

[FordGT90Concept]

I'm going to guess you're somewhere between 30-35 years of age (cheap life insurance so long as you are not deemed high risk).

You're lucky your place of employment offers health insurance. More and more aren't and the cost of most options are climbing.

[Steevo]

I'm going to guess you're somewhere between 30-35 years of age (cheap life insurance so long as you are not deemed high risk).

You're lucky your place of employment offers health insurance. More and more aren't and the cost of most options are climbing.

29 this year

[Frick]

Speaking of insurance: I visited a family in the Detroit suburbs some years ago (2 adults, two kids 12-16 yo), and their health insurance alone was $750 a month. How normal is this in the US?

Also, I can't get a life insurance as I eat anti depressive pills. :D

[Wile E]

I'm going to guess you're somewhere between 30-35 years of age (cheap life insurance so long as you are not deemed high risk).

You're lucky your place of employment offers health insurance. More and more aren't and the cost of most options are climbing.

I don't have health insurance offered to me thru work. And for me to buy health insurance on my own is well out of my price range. Damn near $1000/mo.

[FordGT90Concept]

29 this year
You must be healthy--nothing major in your health file...

That or very, very lucky (someone made a computational error). XD


Either way, good for you. :D Just know that your situation isn't the norm. :(

[SK-1]

Is he TRYING to ruin this country? No,his teleprompter is! I keep trying to tell you.:D jk


But seriously, this Cap and Trade is the total crap. I have yet to hear a good argument for it.


BTW, have you seen the new Cap-N-Trade logo?
http://img.techpowerup.org/090714/Capture319.jpg

[Steevo]

What is killing the heralthcare in the country is all the fatties and lack of self restraint, binge drinking, extreme everything untill you have multiple fractures a broken back and cant work due to your injuries, have a car, house and lifestyle based on your ability to work and then jump out on a bankrupcy, and claim your were the victim (not anyone here unless you did this).


You eat anti-depressive pills? Why? They are a temporary measure that are ment to help you get better, not become a lifelong dependancy. No one feels good all the time, why should you? If you are depressed then find out why instead of eating pills. Then fix it.


My wife used to have to take lithium and a smorgasboard of other pills to feel good, and now she takes none, she jus found that being who she was, and where she was.....was shit. So she changed, and wow, no more issues. No more trips to the hospital for anxeity attacks, no month long stints in the pshyc ward.


Wile, are your costs so high due to what you chose to do to your body? If they are then you have to shoulder your burdens and not whine at me about it. If not I am truly sorry and wish there were somethign I could do to help.

[wolverineI]

No basically whats killing the health care industry is the drain by illegals,fraud perpetrated on the system in massive amounts,and greed on the part of insurance companies,BTW $500 a month JUST medical is quite common in this country. See how much any health care costs at my age.

[DanTheBanjoman]

America and health insurance, confuses me every time I hear about it. I'm glad it works a lot better here.

[Frick]

You eat anti-depressive pills? Why? They are a temporary measure that are ment to help you get better, not become a lifelong dependancy. No one feels good all the time, why should you? If you are depressed then find out why instead of eating pills. Then fix it.


That would be ideal, but it can take time. If you need such pills to make it through the day without attacks and without an overwhelming feeling that you really should kill yourself you should eat them. And work on your issues, of course, in the meantime. MOAR THERAPY TO THE PEOPLE!

Anyway, I totally agree with Dan. :P

[FordGT90Concept]

What is killing the heralthcare in the country is all the fatties and lack of self restraint, binge drinking, extreme everything untill you have multiple fractures a broken back and cant work due to your injuries, have a car, house and lifestyle based on your ability to work and then jump out on a bankrupcy, and claim your were the victim (not anyone here unless you did this).
I do believe this is far from the truth. Most of these are insured and/or don't go in for every little thing. Their insurance costs a lot in order to pay for their unusually large hospital bills.



No basically whats killing the health care industry is the drain by illegals,fraud perpetrated on the system in massive amounts,and greed on the part of insurance companies,BTW $500 a month JUST medical is quite common in this country. See how much any health care costs at my age.
This is closer to the truth. The number one cause of raising healthcare costs is people who get treated and can't afford it (required by law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hill-Burton_Act)). My hospital, in a town of only 5000-6000 people, wrote off over $1,000,000 in debt because of this.

People that don't deserve to be treated but are sucking money out of the system. Someone, somewhere, needs the authority to tell them no. Alternatively, Uncle Sam needs to pick up the tab they are requiring the public sector to shell out so it doesn't inflate the price for legitimate customers.

Until that is fixed, prices will continue to skyrocket.

[WhiteLotus]

A very close friend of mine lives in Alaska. I don't think she has insurance and also has Ovarian Cancer, which may be starting to spread. To think that she, in effect, has to pay astronomical amounts to live because the Health system over there caters only for the rich.
Well, that angers me.

[Deusxmachina]

Anyone who has seen a "price per pill" list for various pills at the hospital will see what part of the problem is. When ONE pill is around $300, and that same pill is probably $20 per pack via mail-order from another country, something isn't right.

Pretty dumb that if I go to the hospital I will make sure to bring my own aspirin.

[Wile E]

What is killing the heralthcare in the country is all the fatties and lack of self restraint, binge drinking, extreme everything untill you have multiple fractures a broken back and cant work due to your injuries, have a car, house and lifestyle based on your ability to work and then jump out on a bankrupcy, and claim your were the victim (not anyone here unless you did this).


You eat anti-depressive pills? Why? They are a temporary measure that are ment to help you get better, not become a lifelong dependancy. No one feels good all the time, why should you? If you are depressed then find out why instead of eating pills. Then fix it.


My wife used to have to take lithium and a smorgasboard of other pills to feel good, and now she takes none, she jus found that being who she was, and where she was.....was shit. So she changed, and wow, no more issues. No more trips to the hospital for anxeity attacks, no month long stints in the pshyc ward.


Wile, are your costs so high due to what you chose to do to your body? If they are then you have to shoulder your burdens and not whine at me about it. If not I am truly sorry and wish there were somethign I could do to help.Nope, that's a little on the high end, but even my perfectly healthy 27yr old neighbor, who never smoked a day in his life, doesn't drink, and is married, would have to pay $750/mo for health coverage. If you have coverage thru your job, they subsidize a huge portion of it.

And I am overweight (considered obese) and have no health coverage, yet I haven't gone to the Hospital in over 10 years (aside from a work related injury, which doesn't count as work pays for that) for anything. And the last time was for a broken wrist, that I got from slipping on some ice, for which I paid every penny (which was well into the 4 digits), albeit over time with payments.

[Iarwain]

You wanna fix it, let any doctor, private practice, or hospital, deduct all or half of the charity work they do from their taxes. And reform the system that lets people sue for absurd amounts with no penalty for false accusations.

As for a public option, or telling insurance companies what they must do with their own money, I think it's absurd. We have no right to tell an insurance company they must cover everyone, it's their money. You do realize, that if you tell insurance companies that EVERYONE'S cost of private insurance is going to go up, because people that were previously uninsurable for the very logical reason that they will use significantly more money than they put in, are going to cost a lot more to the company, and since the company can't print money like the government, they're going to have to make it more expensive for everyone. Which is simply going to move everyone to this public plan, which will, once the numbers are high enough, make the government feel like they should mandate everything effectively destroying the private insurance companies.|

My main complaints against all of it is that I want to be in control of what I do. If we mandate health care coverage, if we mandate the taxes that pay for the people who can't afford it (1.2 trillion dollars), how can we call this a free country with a straight face? I mean, we did not get the biggest economy in the world by raising taxes to pay for nothing.

I won't even get into my philosophical disagreements with this, it would take too long to explain the simple logic.

As for the Netherlands working much better, you definitely pay for it in your taxes. Not just more income tax, but VAT as well.