American or European?

[T3hPwn3r3r]

Originally Posted by Wile E

lol. Your ignorance as far as cars are concerned amuses me.

As far as the exhaust tips, even the Euro car drivers use the big tips. Short of going custom, it's pretty much the status quo for aftermarket exhausts on everything except muscle cars and exotics anymore. That's a silly argument. As far as the Subies in those clips, I can't stand that Harley-ish quality to the exhaust sound. Equal length headers get rid of that. That would be the first mod I did if I ever got a WRX or STI.

Now, on to power and racing. It only takes a B16 swap in a CRX to keep up with an early VR6. and a b18C swapped Civic is a match for early generations of VR6's, and a K20A2 or Z3 swapped into a 90's thru early 2000's civic is a match for the later Vr6's. Hondas have more, and cheaper aftermarket support to be made faster tho, so who loses out in the long run here?

As far as Mitsus, you just haven't come across any that have real power mods. Any 4G63T equipped Mitsu with all the standard bolt-ons will obliterate your car.

You also don't see a lot of 1000HP VR6's floating around, do you? There are quite a few 1000HP Evos floating around tho. Just ask Buschur Racing or AMS Performance.

700+ HP Hondas aren't uncommon either.

So who looks more gay, the guy driving the modified Civic, or the guy in the VW losing to the guy in the modded Civic?

The guy driving the modified Civic.

If it were all about being the fastest I could easily just say "OH IT ONLY TAKES A TOP FUEL DRAGSTER TO BEAT A CIVIC"

Also, you have to understand 99% of Asian cars with "mods" are limited to teenagers with their chicken-wire bodykits and fartcannons like this.

[yogurt_21]

Originally Posted by SK-1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzP-etuL6Y8
Denial is not just a river in Egypt... It got raped. Where is this invisible truck at 1:00 min?

which is why you should come down to earth. I call staged.

I'm not saying it isn't possible to mod an 89 civic to beat an 01 lambo. I'm just stating the fact that it's not what happened there.

a true one would have included the honda's specs and mods as well as indicate the mph.

[1Kurgan1]

[QUOTE=Wile E;4892Now, on to power and racing. It only takes a B16 swap in a CRX to keep up with an early VR6. and a b18C swapped Civic is a match for early generations of VR6's, and a K20A2 or Z3 swapped into a 90's thru early 2000's civic is a match for the later Vr6's. Hondas have more, and cheaper aftermarket support to be made faster tho, so who loses out in the long run here? [/QUOTE]

There a difference there, thats a swapped motor. I've done motor swaps myself, but a lot of people haven't, and would get lost, especially when it comes to wiring. So it's just really hard to compare a swapped motor car to a car that you can pick up, bolt on some parts and get good results out of.

It's really hard for me to talk about Honda's as it seems to have none around here, the fastest one I ever ran across was a mid 90's hatch that had a B16, cam, worked head, full exhaust, maf, custom tune, CAI, at least as far as they explained it had every bolt on possible except air being forced in, it actually osunded wicked, they said they run it to 8500rpms. Also had full suspension and what looked to be 17's on, oh and the coolest thing was, it had rust on the fenderwells, I didn't expect it to be fast at all.

Sad part comes with, my trannys in my SHO was on the way out, I had to shift it with 2 hands they took a 3 car running start from behind me, I hit the gas when they were a car back, they made it up to my back bumper by the top of 2nd (we started at like 35mph) the shift took so long since I had to 2 hand it they made it up to my pass door, and then by mid 3rd they were once again back at the back bumper.

Cool guys, I actually would give that car credit, but at that time I had picked up my SHO for $700 and I wouldn't want to count they put into that car. I'm not saying their isn't fast Hondas out there, but it seems most are all gutted out and they almost all require swaps, except the newer ones.

[SK-1]

Originally Posted by yogurt_21

which is why you should come down to earth. I call staged.

I'm not saying it isn't possible to mod an 89 civic to beat an 01 lambo. I'm just stating the fact that it's not what happened there.

a true one would have included the honda's specs and mods as well as indicate the mph.

Your entire premise is absurd. Ok lets use your logic. Lets get 2 old guys, a 250K Lambo, 2 teenagers in a CRX and EMBARRASS OURSELVES.


You need heavy shoes to "come back to Earth".

[1Kurgan1]

Originally Posted by SK-1

Your entire premise is absurd. Ok lets use your logic. Lets get 2 old guys, a 250K Lambo, 2 teenagers in a CRX and EMBARRASS OURSELVES.


You need heavy shoes to "come back to Earth".

It's not about the people, a CRX beat a Lambo, not a big deal. Any decent drag day at a strip and you could find a handful of cars that would do the exact samething. It's obvious building a car is far cheaper than buying one, the Lambo is a status symbol, if I had the money it wouldn't be the first car on my list, I would much rather have a vette.

But just saying, you can't really compare the 2 and call the CRX awesome for beating a Lambo, it's cool, and I actually give whoever built that car some credit as it almost looks completely stock, heck looks like it has 15" rims on it. Speed before looks, when you put it in the other order, then it's being done wrong, unless the car is already wicked fast.

[SK-1]

Originally Posted by 1Kurgan1

It's not about the people, a CRX beat a Lambo, not a big deal.

Apparently it is to some of our members.

[T3hPwn3r3r]

It's not really a CRX if it has a non stock engine, non stock suspension, non stock everything other than the body.

Either way - it's still a Jap econobox.

Racing =/= going in a straight line.

Where I come from cars have this thing called a steering wheel - and racing involves both straights and this thing called curves - you know... those things where you have to use a steering wheel.

The Lamborghini would destroy it on a proper track (Nurburgring anyone? )

[SK-1]

Good grief^ Some ppl would argue with a brick wall....

[T3hPwn3r3r]

What? Because I don't see the merits of launching something in a straight line? The reason cars have tires, steering systems, suspensions, and things of that sort are to go over unstraight and uneven surfaces.

Hondas can't turn and that's final. Sorry if your brainwashed ricer mentality disagrees and you're a bit butthurt - but modded Hondas, Mitsus, etc. - they are not racecars - nor are they fast. The first time you throw them into a curve they will oversteer into a wall, tree, or ditch.

[SK-1]

Originally Posted by T3hPwn3r3r

Sorry if your brainwashed ricer mentality disagrees and you're a bit butthurt

Name calling? Grow up son.

[Deusxmachina]

Originally Posted by T3hPwn3r3r

What? Because I don't see the merits of launching something in a straight line? The reason cars have tires, steering systems, suspensions, and things of that sort are to go over unstraight and uneven surfaces.

Hondas can't turn and that's final. Sorry if your brainwashed ricer mentality disagrees and you're a bit butthurt - but modded Hondas, Mitsus, etc. - they are not racecars - nor are they fast. The first time you throw them into a curve they will oversteer into a wall, tree, or ditch.

A CRX is a good, some say great, car for autocross.

Did you just say a Mitsu can't go around a curve? Yep, looks like it.

A Mitsubishi EVO is built and bred for rally racing, where they are driven in all sorts of weather conditions, over 50-foot jumps, through water four-feet deep, and around curves on sides of mountains. I think it was Top Gear that said it's the most ridiculously-easy car to drive around curves and makes anyone sitting behind the wheel look like a hero.

I am now picturing a Lamborghini run a typical WRC race. That would be interesting.

[1Kurgan1]

I agree a Evo is a great handling car, anything with AWD setup mildly decent is though, as they are much easier to drive that a car prone to a bit of oversteer. But like you said Evo's were meant to rally, a Lambo isn't meant for that, could they make one with that, then tame it for road use like what has been done to the Evo, I'm sure.

[T3hPwn3r3r]

Originally Posted by Deusxmachina

A CRX is a good, some say great, car for autocross.

Did you just say a Mitsu can't go around a curve? Yep, looks like it.

A Mitsubishi EVO is built and bred for rally racing, where they are driven in all sorts of weather conditions, over 50-foot jumps, through water four-feet deep, and around curves on sides of mountains. I think it was Top Gear that said it's the most ridiculously-easy car to drive around curves and makes anyone sitting behind the wheel look like a hero.

I am now picturing a Lamborghini run a typical WRC race. That would be interesting.

I'm not talking about Evos. I'm talking about the cars you see everyday that are "modded" to go "fast".

Front wheel drive Mitsus, Eagles, Hondas, Toyotas, etc.

FWD is a platform that offers little for the sporty driver - other than severe understeer and horrible launch capabilities.

Put a CRX up against a real (AKA RWD) autoX car such as an RX-8, MX-5, or Corvette and you'll have many lulz.

[T3hPwn3r3r]

Originally Posted by SK-1

Name calling? Grow up son.

Go back to munching the frozen vag of Sarah Palin.

[Deusxmachina]

Originally Posted by T3hPwn3r3r

I'm not talking about Evos. I'm talking about the cars you see everyday that are "modded" to go "fast".

Are things like V6 Mustangs included in the "modded" to go "fast" category?

How fast is that VR6 again, by the way?

[SK-1]

Originally Posted by Deusxmachina

A
How fast is that VR6 again, by the way?

About as fast as his ability to swallow Obama's load.

[Wile E]

Originally Posted by 1Kurgan1

There a difference there, thats a swapped motor. I've done motor swaps myself, but a lot of people haven't, and would get lost, especially when it comes to wiring. So it's just really hard to compare a swapped motor car to a car that you can pick up, bolt on some parts and get good results out of.

It's really hard for me to talk about Honda's as it seems to have none around here, the fastest one I ever ran across was a mid 90's hatch that had a B16, cam, worked head, full exhaust, maf, custom tune, CAI, at least as far as they explained it had every bolt on possible except air being forced in, it actually osunded wicked, they said they run it to 8500rpms. Also had full suspension and what looked to be 17's on, oh and the coolest thing was, it had rust on the fenderwells, I didn't expect it to be fast at all.

Sad part comes with, my trannys in my SHO was on the way out, I had to shift it with 2 hands they took a 3 car running start from behind me, I hit the gas when they were a car back, they made it up to my back bumper by the top of 2nd (we started at like 35mph) the shift took so long since I had to 2 hand it they made it up to my pass door, and then by mid 3rd they were once again back at the back bumper.

Cool guys, I actually would give that car credit, but at that time I had picked up my SHO for $700 and I wouldn't want to count they put into that car. I'm not saying their isn't fast Hondas out there, but it seems most are all gutted out and they almost all require swaps, except the newer ones.

When we are talking mods, it's perfectly fair to mention motor swaps, especially in reference to Hondas, which can be done with all factory available parts in many swaps. Not to mention, the cost of the Civic plus the swap is still likely cheaper than a good VR6 powered car. Nobody here was talking what an average person would do. Average people don't make their cars faster to begin with. We are talking about enthusiasts, and as such, swaps are perfectly normal, not to mention, pretty cheap in Hondas and select Nissans.

Originally Posted by T3hPwn3r3r

What? Because I don't see the merits of launching something in a straight line? The reason cars have tires, steering systems, suspensions, and things of that sort are to go over unstraight and uneven surfaces.

Hondas can't turn and that's final. Sorry if your brainwashed ricer mentality disagrees and you're a bit butthurt - but modded Hondas, Mitsus, etc. - they are not racecars - nor are they fast. The first time you throw them into a curve they will oversteer into a wall, tree, or ditch.

Ummm, except that your precious VR6 has the same limitations as the Hondas and Mitsus. So how is it any better?

And if you think Hondas can't turn, go to a ProSolo autocross event, and see how the VWs stack up against the Hondas. I'll will tell you this, the VW's are allowed more mods when in the same class as the Hondas for a reason. To even up the matchup.

And to prove how little you know about cars, fwd does not have a tendency to oversteer. It's natural tendency is understeer. ANd besides, any car can be made to handle well. Some platforms are better for it than others, but you vr6 doesn't fall into that category, which is where this argument started, not with proper awd or rwd cars. You just threw that in at the last second, due to the fact that you are wrong about the Hondas, mitsus and nissans.

To to make you feel even worse, I can pick up a 240SX, which is a proper platform, for about the same price as all the other cars mentioned here, but still less than a good vr6 car. What do you have to say about that?

Originally Posted by T3hPwn3r3r

I'm not talking about Evos. I'm talking about the cars you see everyday that are "modded" to go "fast".

Front wheel drive Mitsus, Eagles, Hondas, Toyotas, etc.

FWD is a platform that offers little for the sporty driver - other than severe understeer and horrible launch capabilities.

Put a CRX up against a real (AKA RWD) autoX car such as an RX-8, MX-5, or Corvette and you'll have many lulz.

But it will still beat the VR6 car.

And again, fwd was not a stipulation that you made originally.

All this started because you claimed that your vr6 car was better than a Honda, Mitsu, Nissan, and I just pointed out to you that you haven't found a real Honda, Mitsu or Nissan, or else you would've lost. You claim that all Jap owners are rice boys, yet most of the Euro trash I see around uses the same ugly body kits and fart cans. How are they any better than rice?

The answer is: You are simply a fanboy, and have no rational argument against Jap cars, nor know enough about cars to make a truly informed argument or case for your beliefs.

[WhiteLotus]

Sorry but i don't want to read the past 92 posts. What are we debating?

[T3hPwn3r3r]

Originally Posted by Deusxmachina

Are things like V6 Mustangs included in the "modded" to go "fast" category?

How fast is that VR6 again, by the way?

Yes.

Find me a "modded" V6 Mustang on the street that isn't a rustbucket Fox and can actually pull against even a regular GT.

[T3hPwn3r3r]

Originally Posted by SK-1

About as fast as his ability to swallow Obama's load.

I didn't vote for him nor do I like him. I guess they don't teach you guys to read wherever the hell you're from.

[T3hPwn3r3r]

Originally Posted by Wile E

When we are talking mods, it's perfectly fair to mention motor swaps, especially in reference to Hondas, which can be done with all factory available parts in many swaps. Not to mention, the cost of the Civic plus the swap is still likely cheaper than a good VR6 powered car. Nobody here was talking what an average person would do. Average people don't make their cars faster to begin with. We are talking about enthusiasts, and as such, swaps are perfectly normal, not to mention, pretty cheap in Hondas and select Nissans.


Ummm, except that your precious VR6 has the same limitations as the Hondas and Mitsus. So how is it any better?

And if you think Hondas can't turn, go to a ProSolo autocross event, and see how the VWs stack up against the Hondas. I'll will tell you this, the VW's are allowed more mods when in the same class as the Hondas for a reason. To even up the matchup.

And to prove how little you know about cars, fwd does not have a tendency to oversteer. It's natural tendency is understeer. ANd besides, any car can be made to handle well. Some platforms are better for it than others, but you vr6 doesn't fall into that category, which is where this argument started, not with proper awd or rwd cars. You just threw that in at the last second, due to the fact that you are wrong about the Hondas, mitsus and nissans.

To to make you feel even worse, I can pick up a 240SX, which is a proper platform, for about the same price as all the other cars mentioned here, but still less than a good vr6 car. What do you have to say about that?

But it will still beat the VR6 car.

And again, fwd was not a stipulation that you made originally.

All this started because you claimed that your vr6 car was better than a Honda, Mitsu, Nissan, and I just pointed out to you that you haven't found a real Honda, Mitsu or Nissan, or else you would've lost. You claim that all Jap owners are rice boys, yet most of the Euro trash I see around uses the same ugly body kits and fart cans. How are they any better than rice?

The answer is: You are simply a fanboy, and have no rational argument against Jap cars, nor know enough about cars to make a truly informed argument or case for your beliefs.

No, Wile-E, we're simply discussing two different things. You're talking about enthusiasts. I am not. I have never once in my life seen an "enthusiast" on the street or at the track (except the drag strip, which isn't really racing anyway) in a Honda that had a swap.

Perhaps it's different there, but I challenge any of you, as I said, to come here and find a "fast" modded car. Bonus points if it's not a Camaro or Firebird.

The initial argument was that Hondas were OMFGAWESOME for driving in straight lines. My argument was - not when every "modded" Honda is just 110hp with 300 pounds in extra plastic tacked on and ebay parts.

I simply said that the VW was a much better car than a Honda or Mitsu for that. I will add that it is not representative of local European motorsports - that is mainly dominated by 968s, 911s, Audi S4s, etc.

But then I went on to make the argument that your engine swapped Honda doesn't matter, because it'll never last on a real track (DRAG STRIP LOL) (Cones in a parking lot lol) against real cars anyway.

In the end, you're still driving a Honda... one that looks like this at that:

I bet those stickers add 20hp each.

[Deusxmachina]

Originally Posted by T3hPwn3r3r

Find me a "modded" V6 Mustang on the street that isn't a rustbucket Fox and can actually pull against even a regular GT.

I don't understand. All Toyotas, Mitsus, Hondas, etc, were supposedly included here until the EVO was specifically mentioned, and I assume something like the Supra and S2000 would get a pass as well.

But now we know things like RWD V6 Mustangs would be included. So even if a company has a "fast" version of the car available, (EVO, Mustang GT, etc), those apparently weren't the ones being talked about. It's the econo versions being talked about.

So it looks like while saying all Hondas, Mitsus, Toyotas, etc, suck, you actually should have said the riced-out, slow, econobox versions of their cars suck. And we now know this category would include cars such as a RWD V6 Mustang.

My question now is: how does a VR6 fit in here? Have you been talking about one of those 15-second, 0-60 in 7 seconds, FWD VR6s? What specific VR6 you're driving is putting the lulz on all those other econo versions of cars?

Originally Posted by T3hPwn3r3r

The initial argument was that Hondas were OMFGAWESOME for driving in straight lines. My argument was - not when every "modded" Honda is just 110hp with 300 pounds in extra plastic tacked on and ebay parts.

Is that what the initial argument was? That all Hondas are OMFGAWESOME in a straight line? I thought it started with ONE modified CRX going fast in a straight line.

I thought it started back with things like: "...but the huge pipe coming out of the back of an Asian car still screams "I like to make out with men! Actually, I'm pretty sure driving a Honda, Toyota, Eagle, or Mitsubishi in general and trying to make it "fast" in general does that :P"

Fast 4-cylinder cars require a 3" or even bigger exhaust. Notice I didn't use quotes around "fast" there, because some are actually fast.

Have you looked at the engines in some of the econoboxes the past few years, btw? Honda, Toyota, HYUNDAI are stuffing 265-ish hp stock into them. That's not race car speed, but it's not exactly slow.

[1Kurgan1]

Originally Posted by Wile E

When we are talking mods, it's perfectly fair to mention motor swaps, especially in reference to Hondas, which can be done with all factory available parts in many swaps. Not to mention, the cost of the Civic plus the swap is still likely cheaper than a good VR6 powered car. Nobody here was talking what an average person would do. Average people don't make their cars faster to begin with. We are talking about enthusiasts, and as such, swaps are perfectly normal, not to mention, pretty cheap in Hondas and select Nissans.

By average people I meant your average person who puts parts on their cars to go fast. And I could name a handful of people I know that do this, but could never pull a motor out a car and put one back in, and that would be a stock to stock replacement, not a stock to motor from another car replacement. Bolt on parts are easy, many people will put on an intake, pay a shop to put on exhaust, pay someone to give it a tune, toss in a new MAF, but most of them aren't going to dig any deeper than that, like putting on a pair of headers, replacing struts, tearing apart the transmission, or even pulling it out of the car. And even most of those things I listed would have been performed by others.

But as far as cheap would go, I still got to disagree, the motor maybe, but Honda prices are eye gouging, around here sweet 91 Accords with 170k are average 2 - 3k, Civics from mid 90's with a few things done to them are about what I payed for my car. Honda was bang for the buck before FF hit, but after that it brought the wrong crowd, and those enthusiasts easily fall under the, never picked a wrench up in my life category, that dream of motor swaps (but don't have the money to pay someone to do it).

And you can't really compare a new car vs a used car, the used car will always be easier on the wallet.

[Wile E]

Originally Posted by 1Kurgan1

By average people I meant your average person who puts parts on their cars to go fast. And I could name a handful of people I know that do this, but could never pull a motor out a car and put one back in, and that would be a stock to stock replacement, not a stock to motor from another car replacement. Bolt on parts are easy, many people will put on an intake, pay a shop to put on exhaust, pay someone to give it a tune, toss in a new MAF, but most of them aren't going to dig any deeper than that, like putting on a pair of headers, replacing struts, tearing apart the transmission, or even pulling it out of the car. And even most of those things I listed would have been performed by others.

But as far as cheap would go, I still got to disagree, the motor maybe, but Honda prices are eye gouging, around here sweet 91 Accords with 170k are average 2 - 3k, Civics from mid 90's with a few things done to them are about what I payed for my car. Honda was bang for the buck before FF hit, but after that it brought the wrong crowd, and those enthusiasts easily fall under the, never picked a wrench up in my life category, that dream of motor swaps (but don't have the money to pay someone to do it).

And you can't really compare a new car vs a used car, the used car will always be easier on the wallet.

Swaps in Hondas aren't uncommon at all. All of the enthusiasts I know that have a Honda, and are actually concerned about speed, already have a B16 or B18 swap, or are well on their way to getting one. It's dirt cheap for the B16. Slightly less so for the B18, but still under the cost of a VR6 powered VW. And we weren't talking new vs old, we were talking Hondas, Misus and Toyotas vs his VR6 VW. Which do you think is cheaper? VW's are gouged a hell of a lot more than Hondas.

[Wile E]

Originally Posted by T3hPwn3r3r

No, Wile-E, we're simply discussing two different things. You're talking about enthusiasts. I am not. I have never once in my life seen an "enthusiast" on the street or at the track (except the drag strip, which isn't really racing anyway) in a Honda that had a swap.

Perhaps it's different there, but I challenge any of you, as I said, to come here and find a "fast" modded car. Bonus points if it's not a Camaro or Firebird.

The initial argument was that Hondas were OMFGAWESOME for driving in straight lines. My argument was - not when every "modded" Honda is just 110hp with 300 pounds in extra plastic tacked on and ebay parts.

I simply said that the VW was a much better car than a Honda or Mitsu for that. I will add that it is not representative of local European motorsports - that is mainly dominated by 968s, 911s, Audi S4s, etc.

But then I went on to make the argument that your engine swapped Honda doesn't matter, because it'll never last on a real track (DRAG STRIP LOL) (Cones in a parking lot lol) against real cars anyway.

In the end, you're still driving a Honda... one that looks like this at that:
http://www.kris.1000lecie.pl/civicpi...ivic%20(1).jpg
I bet those stickers add 20hp each.

No your argument started that your vr6 is better than Hondas, mitsus, and Toyotas.

As far as finding a properly built Honda in your area, come to mine and try to find a properly built Euro car. They're all riced out as well.

And again, you are sadly mistaken, all these swapped Hondas can compete and easily survive on the real race tracks as well as autocross and drag strip. They will hold up just as well, if not better, than your precious vr6. Most racing organizations use a class system to try to keep racing even. The fwd cars don't race against the rwd and awd cars, so the point you were trying to make is completely moot, anyway. The Hondas will be competing against other fwd platforms, such as the fwd VR6 and 1.8T cars, in which case they compete very well.

Then, after dismissing the higher level Jap cars, you try to bring up higher level Euro cars (968's, 911s, S4s), and all I have to bring up to answer back is the Nissan 240sx, 300ZX, 350Z, and Skyline GTR. The Toyota Supra. The Mitsu Eclipse, 3000GT, or Evo. The Subaru Impreza platform. Mazda RX7, RX8 and Miata. And I'm sure I'm still missing a few.

Again, your fanboyism shines thru. When the argument doesn't go your way, you try to change the scope of the argument, yet every argument you bring up, still has an answer to it.

Your euro cars are not any better than jap cars, get it thru your head.