Rules to double U.S. fuel economy to 54.5 mpg by 2024

[WhiteLotus]

Originally Posted by FordGT90Concept

People that work for a living. Pretty much everyone in the farming and construction industries own big trucks for big trailers.

We are talking inner city folk. People that work in shops and banks. Not farm hands.
Fact is most people do not NEED that sort of car. They only want that car because everyone else has one. Everyone has to massage their egos. 50 odd mpg is very achievable if people grew up and started living sensibly.

[FordGT90Concept]

This is capitalist America, not communist Cuba. Want and a means to pay for it is all that is required.

Most people like driving bigger vehicles because the visibility is better. This is why crossovers are so popular: it has the visibility of an SUV with car-like fuel economy and ride.

It's not egos, it's preference.

You really need to watch the Top Gear episode where they drove tiny European cars in the USA. Our trucks are twice as big as yours, our average pickups are twice as big as yours, and our average cars are twice as big as yours. It's a big country. People spend a lot of time in their cars so they want to be comfortable when operating them. We also got goods and freight to move over long distances. A big car, for example, can mean going to the grocery store twice a month instead of four times a month because there's room to carry it. People also like vehicles that can be driven all year round and feel safe doing so. This is why the pickup and crossover markets are so large in the USA.

Tiny Euro cars are simply impractical in the USA (Canada too). That's the bottomline and why they simply aren't sold here.

[WhiteLotus]

Originally Posted by FordGT90Concept

This is capitalist America, not communist Cuba. Want and a means to pay for it is all that is required.

Most people like driving bigger vehicles because the visibility is better. This is why crossovers are so popular: it has the visibility of an SUV with car-like fuel economy and ride.

It's not egos, it's preference.

You really need to watch the Top Gear episode where they drove tiny European cars in the USA. Our trucks are twice as big as yours, our average pickups are twice as big as yours, and our average cars are twice as big as yours. It's a big country. People spend a lot of time in their cars so they want to be comfortable when operating them. We also got goods and freight to move over long distances. A big car, for example, can mean going to the grocery store twice a month instead of four times a month because there's room to carry it. People also like vehicles that can be driven all year round and feel safe doing so. This is why the pickup and crossover markets are so large in the USA.

Tiny Euro cars are simply impractical in the USA (Canada too). That's the bottomline and why they simply aren't sold here.

You've not ever had to drive a small car have you? In fact do you even drive? I know for a fact that if I had to choose between a 10mpg and a 40+mpg car, the 40+ is going to win every time. Why? So it costs less to run, and thus I have more disposable income to splash around on a new garden and whatever. I wouldn't ever choose the 10mpg, because I would literally be burning my money. Sense. It makes none.

[FordGT90Concept]

Ford Focus (wouldn't drive anything smaller than that) or Ford Expedition

How many miles do you drive a year? USA, 20-40k is average.

Even the brand new Ford Focus only gets about 38 mpg highway and 31 mpg combined. That's still 23.5 mpg short of the new CAFE requirements.

[WhiteLotus]

Originally Posted by FordGT90Concept

Ford Focus (wouldn't drive anything smaller than that) or Ford Expedition

How many miles do you drive a year? USA, 20-40k is average.

Peugeot 206, but I leave it at home when I am at university as insurance costs too much and everything here is within walking distance. So below 10k seeing as I only drive for about 3months a year.

Your average miles in a year could be higher that Europe, but just gives argument to buy better fuel efficient cars. If you have to travel further, surely you want to do it as cheap as you can. A comfy car is a comfy car. Doesn't matter if it's big or small. My dads old BMW something series that he has had for 10+years still gets an average of high 40s mpg on the highway. And that's a frigging old company car.

Even the brand new Ford Focus only gets about 38 mpg highway and 31 mpg combined. That's still 23.5 mpg short of the new CAFE requirements.

That's a heck of a lot better than the 10/15mpg.

[Frick]

Originally Posted by FordGT90Concept

People that work for a living. Pretty much everyone in the farming and construction industries own big trucks for big trailers. There's also the towing/wrecking industry, commercial delievery services (like trailer RVs), and even lots of them in the medical industry totting around multi-million dollar imaging equipment.

People don't buy F-450s/4500s and F-550s/5500s unless they intend to make money with them.


F-250s/2500s and F-350s/3500s are far more common.

So you're telling me the all those big pickup trucks I saw in MI back in 2005 belonged to people in those fields? My guess would be that about 30% of the population is in the construction industry!

[FordGT90Concept]

Originally Posted by WhiteLotus

That's a heck of a lot better than the 10/15mpg.

Who said anything about 10/15 mpg? Are you referring to the "11.1 mpg" on the Long Hauler? That is a 20,000 GVWR truck. 4500/5500 are rare.

Unloaded F-350/3500 and down usually see fuel economy over 15 mpg. And those are big trucks. Your Peugeot 206 could almost fit in the bed of them.

Originally Posted by Frick

So you're telling me the all those big pickup trucks I saw in MI back in 2005 belonged to people in those fields? My guess would be that about 30% of the population is in the construction industry!

Could be. Who am I (or you for that matter) to judge? Michigan has large agiculture and manufacturing industries. It depends on where exactly you are. For example, Sioux City gets a lot of big trucks coming and going because ranchers are taking their cattle to the slaughter houses. Between cities, big trucks are frequent because they're the long-haulers that keep the country moving. In cities, they're likely business-related. An F-150/1500 (~20 mpg) is much easier to maneuver in cities than larger F-250/2500 and F-350/3500 so if they don't intend to use the capabilities of a heavier truck, they aren't likely to own them.

Michigan is also a northern state that has ice/snow conditions during the winter. Almost everyone has at least one vehicle capable of daring a blizzard as a matter of survival.

[1Kurgan1]

Originally Posted by FordGT90Concept

Jaguar XJ6 TDVi Sport - 204hp = 35 mpg
Subaru Legacy Diesel -- 148 hp, 258 lbft = 50 mpg highway
Volkswagon Polo -- 74 hp, 133 lbft = 71.3 mpg

The last two vehicles are wimpy by US standards. The first isn't even close to 54.5 mpg and is no longer even for sale in Europe; moreover, none of the above have been through EPA testing for emissions and fuel economy so European figures do not translate to the USA.

I'd say 148hp and 258 ft lbs are plenty enough power. My old 91 Accord had 145hp and it got around pretty good, but thats also because it was a light car.

[FordGT90Concept]

The Subaru Legacy is a heavy station wagon. XD

[1Kurgan1]

Looks like around 3,700lbs, but it also has a mountain of torque to help out. Honestly, I think that would be just fine here, it wouldn't be any worse off that other more economic cars people buy, and it being a wagon will still have carrying capacity, so it would have a market.

[FordGT90Concept]

Nissan and Ram might be bringing a Cummins diesel to their light-duty trucks/vans. Everyone will be watching how they are received.

[JC316]

Originally Posted by WhiteLotus

You've not ever had to drive a small car have you? In fact do you even drive? I know for a fact that if I had to choose between a 10mpg and a 40+mpg car, the 40+ is going to win every time. Why? So it costs less to run, and thus I have more disposable income to splash around on a new garden and whatever. I wouldn't ever choose the 10mpg, because I would literally be burning my money. Sense. It makes none.

Have you ever driven a big luxury car? All you have over there are the small cars, so of course you are used to them. It would be like asking you go do down to a 50cc scooter to do everything with.

I have driven everything over here and I can honestly say that I will take the sacrifice in MPGs for a bigger and more comfortable car. I went from a 38MPG saturn to a 24MPG mustang GT and it didn't bother me at all, then I needed a truck so I went to a 17MPG F150 and it didn't bother me at all. Now when I got my 11MPG cougar, I said fuck that and went back to a 24mpg mustang again.

You are making the same mistake that everyone makes, thinking that their opinion is the entire worlds opinion. I enjoy my cars like you enjoy your garden. I put my disposable money into it, I work hard for it and now you say "give it up just because we say so". How would you feel if your government just said no more gardens because they cause too much pollen.

[WhiteLotus]

Originally Posted by JC316

Have you ever driven a big luxury car? All you have over there are the small cars, so of course you are used to them. It would be like asking you go do down to a 50cc scooter to do everything with.

I have driven everything over here and I can honestly say that I will take the sacrifice in MPGs for a bigger and more comfortable car. I went from a 38MPG saturn to a 24MPG mustang GT and it didn't bother me at all, then I needed a truck so I went to a 17MPG F150 and it didn't bother me at all. Now when I got my 11MPG cougar, I said fuck that and went back to a 24mpg mustang again.

You are making the same mistake that everyone makes, thinking that their opinion is the entire worlds opinion. I enjoy my cars like you enjoy your garden. I put my disposable money into it, I work hard for it and now you say "give it up just because we say so". How would you feel if your government just said no more gardens because they cause too much pollen.

If cars are your hobby then by all means, enjoy your hobby. I just think that you could maintain everything that you love about the car you drive and increase the efficiency of fuel consumption if the market simply asked for it.

[Steevo]

I used to drive my old car that got 28-32 MPG.

Now I drive the family van that does 16 MPG. Town.

My company car is a Explorer that gets a whopping 17 Hwy if I am nice to it.

But, I also go out into fields and need AWD or 4WD, I drive my company car alone 20K per year. I need a van for my two kids (it seats 8, but we take it on trips with family and friends) that is AWD to go camping and off roads, and this is Colorado, snow is always a possibility when in the mountains.


All that being said, I still want a small car to just run the kids around town, park the van except for the trips and bad weather. But the economy of scale where I spend hundreds of dollars on a car to save maybe 60 a month in fuel?

I believe that people in cities should be forced to pay luxury taxes on larger vehicles, and taxes at the pump should be higher, much higher.