American or European?

[1Kurgan1]

Originally Posted by Wile E

Swaps in Hondas aren't uncommon at all. All of the enthusiasts I know that have a Honda, and are actually concerned about speed, already have a B16 or B18 swap, or are well on their way to getting one. It's dirt cheap for the B16. Slightly less so for the B18, but still under the cost of a VR6 powered VW. And we weren't talking new vs old, we were talking Hondas, Misus and Toyotas vs his VR6 VW. Which do you think is cheaper? VW's are gouged a hell of a lot more than Hondas.

I'm not saying they are rare, but just that there are a ton of car nuts that don't have the skill to swap a motor and would pay someone else to do it. I'm still not a fan of B16 swaps though, like I said that full bolt on one was slower than my fubared tranny SHO. Even B18's, had a friend with a 96 GSR I/H/E and that SHO had no issues destroying that, from a stop it was a decent run, from a roll it was harsh.

But as far as VR6 vs Honda, it's up in the air. The Honda after market is huge, but VR6 won't need a swap, but then again VR6 isn't the best you could get imo. Looking for a 1.8t car if you looking at VW's is the way to go, real cheap speed when you already have FI on something. So really goes back and forth and depends on budget, if the sky is the limit anything is possible with any car, but it's when you start putting price constraints down (since car parts are a lot more than comp parts) that it starts to get hard.

But I do agree about riced out VW's, it isn't just a japanese car thing, anything with a 4 popper and it seems people feel the need to strap a park bench to the trunk, a massive fart cannon, and some stickers. I just don't see VW's as a german car, now we start looking at their Audi siblings and I might, even then still hard for me to think of an A4 like that as they use the exact same body.

[yogurt_21]

Originally Posted by SK-1

Your entire premise is absurd. Ok lets use your logic. Lets get 2 old guys, a 250K Lambo, 2 teenagers in a CRX and EMBARRASS OURSELVES.


You need heavy shoes to "come back to Earth".

actually it's yours which is flawed, the old guys took the video, if they we're staging it do you really think they would be postign it on the net? seriously. no they would burn the tape and all evidence that it ever happened.

stop idolizing a fake vid and find a real one.

[FordGT90Concept]

Lamborghinis really aren't that fast. They're faster than your average car, yeah, but among the super cars they're snails. Their advantage is in handling, not straight line performance.

[erocker]

I buy as locally as I can to support the people around me.

[Wile E]

Originally Posted by 1Kurgan1

I'm not saying they are rare, but just that there are a ton of car nuts that don't have the skill to swap a motor and would pay someone else to do it. I'm still not a fan of B16 swaps though, like I said that full bolt on one was slower than my fubared tranny SHO. Even B18's, had a friend with a 96 GSR I/H/E and that SHO had no issues destroying that, from a stop it was a decent run, from a roll it was harsh.

But as far as VR6 vs Honda, it's up in the air. The Honda after market is huge, but VR6 won't need a swap, but then again VR6 isn't the best you could get imo. Looking for a 1.8t car if you looking at VW's is the way to go, real cheap speed when you already have FI on something. So really goes back and forth and depends on budget, if the sky is the limit anything is possible with any car, but it's when you start putting price constraints down (since car parts are a lot more than comp parts) that it starts to get hard.

But I do agree about riced out VW's, it isn't just a japanese car thing, anything with a 4 popper and it seems people feel the need to strap a park bench to the trunk, a massive fart cannon, and some stickers. I just don't see VW's as a german car, now we start looking at their Audi siblings and I might, even then still hard for me to think of an A4 like that as they use the exact same body.

I agree, it comes down to price constraints, and the Jap cars have a heavy advantage in that over 90% of the Euro cars. So him saying that they are crap is just a fanboy statement. He came in claiming that all "tuned" jap cars are crap, yet the Euro cars that are "tuned", generally have the same ugly shit on them as the jap cars.

Then he went on to mention how his vr6 is faster than these tuned Hondas, Toyotas, mitsus and Nissans, and I went on to show him that for the same price as his stock vr6, I can easily build a honda or select nissan or toyota that would embarrass his car, in any contest of speed. And I don't have to have it all riced out to do it. And it will eventually need that huge exhaust, because turbos like big exhausts. Not all tuned Hondas are rice boys.

I like Euro cars and all, but they are just overpriced for what you get, especially when it comes to reliability or aftermarket support. I still, to this day, want an E36 M3 tho. lol.

[T3hPwn3r3r]

Fine, since we argue semantics instead of the obvious implied meaning, I'll leave it at this.

Even if your Honda does a 7 second quarter mile, you're still driving a 20,000$ compact car.

Also, arguing about cars that have been swapped is entirely ridiculous, as you can drop an LS series engine into anything and make it fast, pretty much.

One thing I would like to argue - putting 20 grand into a car to make it "fast" is kind of dumb, as for the same cost it takes to get a Honda into the 5 second 0-60s combined with the car (high resale, high used prices), you could buy a new Cobalt SS, Mazdaspeed3, or a LIGHTLY used GT, 'Vette, even LOTUS (Elises can be had for ~20k used in great condition) for that price.

Point being, you can either be THAT guy:


Or THAT guy:

[T3hPwn3r3r]

Originally Posted by Wile E

I agree, it comes down to price constraints, and the Jap cars have a heavy advantage in that over 90% of the Euro cars. So him saying that they are crap is just a fanboy statement. He came in claiming that all "tuned" jap cars are crap, yet the Euro cars that are "tuned", generally have the same ugly shit on them as the jap cars.

Then he went on to mention how his vr6 is faster than these tuned Hondas, Toyotas, mitsus and Nissans, and I went on to show him that for the same price as his stock vr6, I can easily build a honda or select nissan or toyota that would embarrass his car, in any contest of speed. And I don't have to have it all riced out to do it. And it will eventually need that huge exhaust, because turbos like big exhausts. Not all tuned Hondas are rice boys.

I like Euro cars and all, but they are just overpriced for what you get, especially when it comes to reliability or aftermarket support. I still, to this day, want an E36 M3 tho. lol.

Stock VR6 5 speed, 86k miles+new tires, 0-60 in under 7, total cost, 2900$.

My simple reason for this argument though - is aside from drag racing (HURP DURP I CAN GO IN A STRAIGHT LINE WHEWT) I've yet to see a swapped Honda, or a fast Honda in general. I've seen one fast Talon, with 20 grand poured into it, but I guarantee it could be matched with 20 grand in any car (even my little A to B Cavalier could do good with 20 grand)

I do agree with Kurgan on the 1.8T thing though.

With the base APR ECU tune running mid-premium fuel you can hit the mid 200s horsepower wise for less than 500$, and the aftermarket is excellent.

[Deusxmachina]

Originally Posted by T3hPwn3r3r

Fine, since we argue semantics instead of the obvious implied meaning, I'll leave it at this.

Even if your Honda does a 7 second quarter mile, you're still driving a 20,000$ compact car.

Also, arguing about cars that have been swapped is entirely ridiculous, as you can drop an LS series engine into anything and make it fast, pretty much.

One thing I would like to argue - putting 20 grand into a car to make it "fast" is kind of dumb, as for the same cost it takes to get a Honda into the 5 second 0-60s combined with the car (high resale, high used prices), you could buy a new Cobalt SS, Mazdaspeed3, or a LIGHTLY used GT, 'Vette, even LOTUS (Elises can be had for ~20k used in great condition) for that price.

What semantics? You basically said all Japanese cars are slow and can't go around a curve. If you were completely ignoring the upper models and only meant the bottom models of those manufacturers are slow and can't go around a curve, that's what you should have said from the start. I bet if Lamborghini made a $20k econo car, it probably wouldn't be that fast or go around curves too well, either.

As for putting 20k into a low-rung car to make it "fast," that is true, not everyone wants to drive a $5k car with 20k in mods done to it, but 20k in mods almost assuredly gets you FAST, not "fast." Maybe it's just me, but if someone spends 20k just to keep up with a stock Cobalt, I'd probably think they're doing it wrong.

All of this is at least somewhat amusing since the car of the day is a VR6 that does 0-60 in a ludicrous-speed under 7 seconds. Someone grab a video camera and a Lambo, (which is the car that started this).

Originally Posted by T3hPwn3r3r

I do agree with Kurgan on the 1.8T thing though.

With the base APR ECU tune running mid-premium fuel you can hit the mid 200s horsepower wise for less than 500$, and the aftermarket is excellent.

Awesome. That's almost as much horsepower as a current stock Honda or Hyundai family sedan.

[T3hPwn3r3r]

Originally Posted by Deusxmachina

What semantics? You basically said all Japanese cars are slow and can't go around a curve. If you were completely ignoring the upper models and only meant the bottom models of those manufacturers are slow and can't go around a curve, that's what you should have said from the start. I bet if Lamborghini made a $20k econo car, it probably wouldn't be that fast or go around curves too well, either.

As for putting 20k into a low-rung car to make it "fast," that is true, not everyone wants to drive a $5k car with 20k in mods done to it, but 20k in mods almost assuredly gets you FAST, not "fast." Maybe it's just me, but if someone spends 20k just to keep up with a stock Cobalt, I'd probably think they're doing it wrong.

All of this is at least somewhat amusing since the car of the day is a VR6 that does 0-60 in a ludicrous-speed under 7 seconds. Someone grab a video camera and a Lambo, (which is the car that started this).



Awesome. That's almost as much horsepower as a current stock Honda or Hyundai family sedan.

Yes, yes, but go drive a Honda Accord around a curve against a Euro-spec MKIV Golf with the APR tune (which can be had for MUCH cheaper since we're talking value here)

I never said the car of the day was a VR6, I only said it spanked ricefags, and spanked them hard, because their Civics just don't handle it.

However if you want to talk upper end models, I know several Corvettes, Porsches, and biturbo V12 Benzs that would like to discuss things with your Evo/STi.

Keep in mind Asian cars don't hold much for records.

Benz, last I checked had the fastest 4 door saloon, a Dodge held a drift title, and a French car just won Le Mans.

[JC316]

You want to talk value/performance/curves. $10,000 budget, here is what I would do.

96 Mustang GT. I paid $1500 for it. 215HP stock.

PI Headswap = $700 = 270ish HP at the crank. Little more than a 99-04 because of a higher compression ratio.
Vortech V2SQ kit = $5000
Stage 2 Blower cams with beehive springs =$1500
ARP Main studs and rod bolts + Main/Rod Bearings = $400
Tune = $400
Ebaich lowering springs = $239

You are looking at $9740

That's under $10000 and you have easily 400-450HP car that handles GREAT and will smoke practically anything in the same price range. That is with retail pricing. With finding deals, you could easily drop that down to around 7K. Get a 5.0 stang and you can do it even cheaper.

Here is a video with a comparable stang to what I just mentioned. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tCebg-psTpk

This is where an American car has the import beat. There may be faster imports, but I doubt you could find one that fast for that cheap.

[Deusxmachina]

Originally Posted by T3hPwn3r3r

However if you want to talk upper end models, I know several Corvettes, Porsches, and biturbo V12 Benzs that would like to discuss things with your Evo/STi.

Keep in mind Asian cars don't hold much for records.

Benz, last I checked had the fastest 4 door saloon, a Dodge held a drift title, and a French car just won Le Mans.

If I wanted to talk upper-end models, Corvettes would be on my side of the discussion since the thread is "American or European" and has turned more into "everything else or European."

I'm not a big record guy since most of them are about big-$ teams with top drivers and have little relevance to people in the real world. I mean, records like the stock-internal Supra horsepower record are interesting since anyone with some shade and a tree can see what is possible, but if Ferrari wins Formula One or a Viper wins at LeMans or whatever, I don't really care.

Originally Posted by JC316

This is where an American car has the import beat. There may be faster imports, but I doubt you could find one that fast for that cheap.

We may need a whole separate benchracing thread. Boy, I hope not.

That Mustang is doing 450hp on the stock clutch and using the stock fuel pump and stock exhaust and all that? Impressive.

Let's see cuz I'm bored...

'92 AWD Talon/Eclipse
$1k stage eleventeen turbo
$500 cams
$500 front-mount and pipes
$100 fuel pump
$150 fp regulator
$500 clutch
$100 K&N and intake pipe
$500 exhaust
$300 biggie injectors
$20 boost controller
$250 tuning stuff
$200 2g or other manifold
$500 springs and struts and enough for a sway bar, too

$4620 + your $1500 for the car = $6120 and you have AWD to race in the snow and rain if you want.

It's late, and if I missed a thing or two or you want to bump the price of the car up to make it a '96 or whatever, you've got $3620 left to spend. Should be good for around 450-500bhp, 400+whp, and 11s on street tires, 0-60 in the 3s. Add more boost and/or really big turbo and stuff for more hp. Add on upgraded internals for extra reliability if you want. Only have to buy parts for four cylinders instead of eight, too. Neato.

Then again, that probably doesn't count as an import since that car was built in Illinois and is probably more American than a Canadian-made Camaro.

If we want to be dumb, we could just say get an old $500 Mustang and drop a built 460 into it, or get an old Camaro, do a 383 and a giant shot of nitrous, etc.

Benchracing can sometimes be fun, but I hope no one takes it too seriously. There's plenty of nice cars out there with potential.

[1Kurgan1]

Meh, guy on SHOforum took a stock 91 SHO, put in a fuel pump, a SC, tuned it and dropped down I believe 445whp.

You can do a lot of things for cheap with any type of car, but matters what you skip, any of these cars mentioned are going to corner and stop like crap. I mean even with the Talon, is the clutch goign to handle that, I have a feeling a few decent launches and it would blow the drive train to dust (AWD is great to launch, but if you have too much power to launch it like you stole it then there is no use).

Here's a good example too, even crate engines are dirt cheap, I'm too lazy to look through more parts as if you had the block you could build something cheaper, but this should be a no brains drop in a 3rd gen camaro with a blown motor (prob not even $1000 for the car)

http://www.jegs.com/p/Blueprint-Engi...61097/10002/-1

Then you can go blow the tranny and rear end right out, lol.

[Deusxmachina]

One good one is a guy who was at the track with an LT1 Vette doing 11s at around 120. Lingenfelter was there with one of his current creations of the time, had gone through the block and added $10+k of stuff to it, etc, and it was slower than the other guy. "What do you have done to it?" Basically was exhaust and a 200+ shot of nitrous. How long did that engine last? Who knows....

Then there was the "Nosxima" Nissan Maxima rental car. Automatic. A 125 shot, and a vise grips on the fuel return line to bump up the pressure. With some neutral-drop launches, it did 13s and beat up on plenty of "sports cars" that day. It was supposed to be a Cadillac "NosStar," but the rental place screwed up the reservation.

(cue Seinfeld)
"That's why you have the reservation. To hold the car here."
"Sir, I know what a reservation is."
"I don't think you do. If you did, the car would be here."

[JC316]

Originally Posted by Deusxmachina

That Mustang is doing 450hp on the stock clutch and using the stock fuel pump and stock exhaust and all that? Impressive.

Let's see cuz I'm bored...

'92 AWD Talon/Eclipse
$1k stage eleventeen turbo
$500 cams
$500 front-mount and pipes
$100 fuel pump
$150 fp regulator
$500 clutch
$100 K&N and intake pipe
$500 exhaust
$300 biggie injectors
$20 boost controller
$250 tuning stuff
$200 2g or other manifold
$500 springs and struts and enough for a sway bar, too

$4620 + your $1500 for the car = $6120 and you have AWD to race in the snow and rain if you want.

It's late, and if I missed a thing or two or you want to bump the price of the car up to make it a '96 or whatever, you've got $3620 left to spend. Should be good for around 450-500bhp, 400+whp, and 11s on street tires, 0-60 in the 3s. Add more boost and/or really big turbo and stuff for more hp. Add on upgraded internals for extra reliability if you want. Only have to buy parts for four cylinders instead of eight, too. Neato.

Then again, that probably doesn't count as an import since that car was built in Illinois and is probably more American than a Canadian-made Camaro.

If we want to be dumb, we could just say get an old $500 Mustang and drop a built 460 into it, or get an old Camaro, do a 383 and a giant shot of nitrous, etc.

Benchracing can sometimes be fun, but I hope no one takes it too seriously. There's plenty of nice cars out there with potential.

Mine has a king cobra clutch in it as well as aftermarket exhaust and 3.55 gears. The Vortech kit comes with high flow fuel pump and injectors.

You try running 450HP on a stock Talon bottom end and see how far you get $100 says you throw a rod before 5,000 miles. Plus I don't think you are going to add 250HP with just a cam and upgraded turbo and exhaust. You might be able to get it to 350HP at the crank, but I doubt you would reach 450HP.

[1Kurgan1]

Originally Posted by Deusxmachina

One good one is a guy who was at the track with an LT1 Vette doing 11s at around 120. Lingenfelter was there with one of his current creations of the time, had gone through the block and added $10+k of stuff to it, etc, and it was slower than the other guy. "What do you have done to it?" Basically was exhaust and a 200+ shot of nitrous. How long did that engine last? Who knows....

Then there was the "Nosxima" Nissan Maxima rental car. Automatic. A 125 shot, and a vise grips on the fuel return line to bump up the pressure. With some neutral-drop launches, it did 13s and beat up on plenty of "sports cars" that day. It was supposed to be a Cadillac "NosStar," but the rental place screwed up the reservation.

(cue Seinfeld)
"That's why you have the reservation. To hold the car here."
"Sir, I know what a reservation is."
"I don't think you do. If you did, the car would be here."

Anything is possible for NOS, just matters for how long. I seen a video on streetfire of a old base civic that put down I think like 75whp, they then tossed on I believe a 250 shot and hit the dyno again. It lived and put down 225whp..... That think would have tore someone up on the street. So what do they do, hit it again... BOOM didn't make the second run, was interesting to see since they had the hood open.

Odds on the LT1 taking that many 200 shots are pretty low, those motors bottom end just can't take a ton, I'm guessing he built a stout rotating assembly sometime down the line.

[Deusxmachina]

Originally Posted by JC316

You try running 450HP on a stock Talon bottom end and see how far you get $100 says you throw a rod before 5,000 miles. Plus I don't think you are going to add 250HP with just a cam and upgraded turbo and exhaust. You might be able to get it to 350HP at the crank, but I doubt you would reach 450HP.

Why do you doubt it? Do you even know why, or do you just doubt it. It's too bad other cars bring down people's expectations.

This is pretty standard stuff. I don't know what else you think it needs.

[JC316]

Originally Posted by Deusxmachina

Why do you doubt it? Do you even know why, or do you just doubt it. It's too bad other cars bring down people's expectations.

This is pretty standard stuff. I don't know what else you think it needs.

The stock motor makes 190HP with a stock turbo charger and intercooler.

In order to be making 450HP at the crank, you would have to be running MASSIVE amounts of boost. You couple that with stock valve springs, stock bearings, stock internals and stock gaskets and you have a ticking time bomb.

With forged internals, you could be making 450.

Not saying that it's not possible, but it would take more than just bolting a cam and a turbo on the car.

[3991v]

Originally Posted by T3hPwn3r3r

Point being, you can either be THAT guy:
http://www.motorcities.com/media/ima...lue-I-640.jpeg

Or THAT guy:
http://www.seriouswheels.com/pics-jk...se-Type-25.jpg

I would choose to be the first guy, I hate how Lotus cars look..

(I don't race, so speed and handling really don't matter to me as much as looks)

[Deusxmachina]

Originally Posted by JC316

In order to be making 450HP at the crank, you would have to be running MASSIVE amounts of boost. You couple that with stock valve springs, stock bearings, stock internals and stock gaskets and you have a ticking time bomb.

Well, people have been doing that for the past 15 or so years, so it's not like this is anything new. Of course, built motors become more commonplace as time goes on if for no other reason than the aftermarket is big enough now and the prices are right where if you're doing even a standard, high-mileage rebuild you "may as well" put even better stuff in.

MASSIVE amounts of boost? Define "MASSIVE." If it takes "massive" amounts of boost to do 450bhp, I wonder what the adjective for the boost is for the guys who are actually fast.

[Wile E]

Originally Posted by T3hPwn3r3r

Stock VR6 5 speed, 86k miles+new tires, 0-60 in under 7, total cost, 2900$.

My simple reason for this argument though - is aside from drag racing (HURP DURP I CAN GO IN A STRAIGHT LINE WHEWT) I've yet to see a swapped Honda, or a fast Honda in general. I've seen one fast Talon, with 20 grand poured into it, but I guarantee it could be matched with 20 grand in any car (even my little A to B Cavalier could do good with 20 grand)

I do agree with Kurgan on the 1.8T thing though.

With the base APR ECU tune running mid-premium fuel you can hit the mid 200s horsepower wise for less than 500$, and the aftermarket is excellent.

A cheap car that has $20k dumped into it, can generally outperform cars 3x (or better) it's total investment. If that guy dumped 20k into a Talon, and he wasn't dumping all over z06's, he was doing it wrong. Less so in the corners, but close enough to keep ahead with straights taken into account.

And apparently, you have not been looking for a proper Honda, or they just largely ignore your VR6, because they are very common in my area, and I'm in an area that frowns upon imports in general. (An area that was founded on steel mills. As USA-centric as it gets)

As far as the cost of your car, you just got a really good deal, as VR6 never go for low prices in good shape, and I'm quite sure you know that. But others an get great deals as well, and to drive my point home, my 97 Civic cost me $900 w/160k. It wasn't running, and they didn't want to fix it. It needed a distributor cap. lol. For $2k, I can have a B18 in there, and be faster than your car, all for the same cash outlay. So how is your Euro car better at racing than a jap car?

Originally Posted by JC316

The stock motor makes 190HP with a stock turbo charger and intercooler.

In order to be making 450HP at the crank, you would have to be running MASSIVE amounts of boost. You couple that with stock valve springs, stock bearings, stock internals and stock gaskets and you have a ticking time bomb.

With forged internals, you could be making 450.

Not saying that it's not possible, but it would take more than just bolting a cam and a turbo on the car.

It doesn't much more than bolt-ons and a better turbo. The crank is forged from the factory, as is the case with the vast majority of boosted factory cars from Japan. Hell, many of the non-boosted cars from Japan in the 90's had forged stock cranks, especially Nissans. For DSM's, pistons are the first weak link, followed very closely by the rods. The crank and block will take 1000HP all day long. Something that even most Mustangs can't claim, especially the 5.0 cars. 4.6 blocks are a bit stronger tho.

[1Kurgan1]

Originally Posted by Deusxmachina

Well, people have been doing that for the past 15 or so years, so it's not like this is anything new. Of course, built motors become more commonplace as time goes on if for no other reason than the aftermarket is big enough now and the prices are right where if you're doing even a standard, high-mileage rebuild you "may as well" put even better stuff in.

MASSIVE amounts of boost? Define "MASSIVE." If it takes "massive" amounts of boost to do 450bhp, I wonder what the adjective for the boost is for the guys who are actually fast.

Only the 4 bolt blocks are worth the money, which is why you said 92. Any of the others are pretty crappy and aren't going to hold that kind of power, my cousins bone stock 95 TSi crank walked with 80k on it. And before that it popped a turbo and tossed a clutch, he put a lot of money into repairing that car.

[Deusxmachina]

Originally Posted by 1Kurgan1

Only the 4 bolt blocks are worth the money, which is why you said 92. Any of the others are pretty crappy and aren't going to hold that kind of power, my cousins bone stock 95 TSi crank walked with 80k on it.

You're close. 6-bolt block. Although some will argue the main crankwalking cars were just (or "just") a bad 95 maybe 96 run from the factory since you don't really hear of the other years walking much if at all. And EVOs always had 7-bolts over the years and there was never much (any?) crankwalk talk about those, so maybe the ones to watch out for are indeed only the 95 and maybe 96 American-made cars. ...which might be useful info if getting a "30k-miles" used engine from Japan.

Various shops and people have said even walked 7s are fine if you rebuild them right. Beats me. Not something I've paid attention to. With the age of ALL those engines, though, that's something to read up on for a lot of people since, EVOs aside, the newest of those American engines are still 10 years old now, and nothing lasts forever.

7-bolts still hold power well, although they do have weaker rods. "Weaker" is of course a relative term since the 6-bolt rods are some honkers. These things have done over 600whp, so, again, relative.

They aren't the first car to crankwalk, either. Off the top of my head, Miatas had some issues, for instance.

Regardless, no car is perfect. Vettes from the past 10 years are pretty close, though.

[1Kurgan1]

Originally Posted by Deusxmachina

You're close. 6-bolt block. Although some will argue the main crankwalking cars were just (or "just") a bad 95 maybe 96 run from the factory since you don't really hear of the other years walking much if at all. And EVOs always had 7-bolts over the years and there was never much (any?) crankwalk talk about those, so maybe the ones to watch out for are indeed only the 95 and maybe 96 American-made cars. ...which might be useful info if getting a "30k-miles" used engine from Japan.

Various shops and people have said even walked 7s are fine if you rebuild them right. Beats me. Not something I've paid attention to. With the age of ALL those engines, though, that's something to read up on for a lot of people since, EVOs aside, the newest of those American engines are still 10 years old now, and nothing lasts forever.

7-bolts still hold power well, although they do have weaker rods. "Weaker" is of course a relative term since the 6-bolt rods are some honkers. These things have done over 600whp, so, again, relative.

They aren't the first car to crankwalk, either. Off the top of my head, Miatas had some issues, for instance.

Regardless, no car is perfect. Vettes from the past 10 years are pretty close, though.

Ah, my bad, been a long time since I did DSM research, knew 92-94 had the best blocks though. His was indeed a 95, fun car, but maintenance whore. Good info there on the rest, I never looked at Evo blocks as they were too knew and pricey. There a few cars that crank walk, anything can really happen, Miata though, better off crank walking, those cars just need a beefier motor dropped in them to catch my eye.

[Deusxmachina]

Originally Posted by 1Kurgan1

Ah, my bad, been a long time since I did DSM research, knew 92-94 had the best blocks though. His was indeed a 95, fun car, but maintenance whore. Good info there on the rest, I never looked at Evo blocks as they were too knew and pricey.

That's the weird part. 95s have done the crankwalk thing, but 92.5s, 93s, and 94s have 7-bolts, too, and don't, so I guess something weird happened at the 2g model change-over. What do they say... never buy the first year of a new car or a redesign? That's maybe good advice.

The EVO blocks had everything reversed for the past years, so only the earlier ones would fit an Eclipse. To be clear, I mainly just meant that EVOs in the states still offered the 2-liter/AWD package fans have come to know and love, but those engines won't drop into a DSM, so it's either rebuild a U.S. DSM engine, or drop in an early JDM EVO or Galant engine (or a 2.4l).

Or, what you can do is get an engine out of a Supra and do a 2JZ swap...

[1Kurgan1]

That has always been one of my favorite pictures. But also one thing that I'm wondering is how stout is the drivetrain on DSM's. I just can't imagine them standing up to that kind of power and pulling off good launches, something eventually has to give. And a tranny failure is just as bad as a engine failure in my book. Part of the reason I got out of the SHO game, after tossing 3 differential pins through tranny casings it just got old.